Diolch, Megan It occurs to me that I should mention what a rich genealogical source Terry Davies' new book about Borth has turned out to be. I think Alison kindly mentioned this book on this list a few weeks ago (but my copy has just turned up). This is where I got the reference I referred to in my earlier email about Llewelyn/Lewis. Anyone with family from Borth (or Llanfihangel genau'r glyn generally) are very likely to find material of interest. Terry has treated the maritime history of a couple of dozen Borth families and included lots of detail, including material I was certainly unaware of in respect of one whole family of relatives (Williams family of Auckland House, Borth). People I have 'met' on this list are mentioned, too (Hello, Betty Vodanovich in NZ!) [Terry Davies 2009, Borth: A Maritime History, Llygad Gwalch] Hwyl David > David > > For my own experience in Wales it tends to be more that people > shorten Llewelyn to "Llew" or "Lew" or "Lou". So it maybe that > outstide of Wales this has been assumed/become "Lewis" Of course > others may have different experiences!] > > Megan > > From: David Rowlands <drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> > > I had heard some years ago that there was a practice some years ago > among Welsh people of adopting 'Lewis' as some sort of rough > equivalent to 'Llewelyn' (however you may wish to spell it). I can > only presume this was to have an equivalent that English tongues can > handle without difficulty. > > Now I have come across a relative (my Taid's first cousin) who I had > listed as 'John Lewis Williams' but who is mentioned in a new book as > 'John Llewelyn Williams' and I am wondering whether what I had heard > about using 'Lewis' for 'Llewelyn' was a common practice.

Merv My guess without checking any specifics on your farm location is that Lluest and Llyastucha could be the same place. Looks to me like 'Llyast' is a less conventional spelling of 'Lluest' (= 'tent' or some sort of temporary dwelling, I believe). Lluest ucha(f) (Llyastucha) would simply mean 'upper Lluest'. There are often variants on the same name in neighbouring farms. So you might find a 'Lluest isa(f)' (Lower Lluest) or 'Lluest bach' (little Lluest). David Canberra On 22/01/2010, at 9:56, Merv Thomas wrote: > Hello the list, > > So far, I've traced my THOMAS's back through various means to > Cellan. The > 1851 census shows Thomas & Anne on a farm called Lluest while the 1841 > census shows them at a place called Llyastucha. > > My question is this: is it possible that these 2 names refer to the > same > place? I could find no reference to Llyastucha on GENUKI or the > Dyfed FHS > websites. I'm also having trouble deciphering the house names on the > census > image and the ones I can read, I can't find on my maps. > > I don't know if anyone can shed any light - in the overall scheme of > things > it's not important, but - I just like to know where people were. > > > Thanks, > Merv. > > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Photos of: St Michaels' Church & Mt Zion Chapel, Glascoed, MON; Capel yr Ynys, Cefn Crib, MON; and St Peter's Church, Bryngwyn, MON Dear Listers, The latest subjects to be added to my 'Welsh Churches and Chapels Collection' are all in Monmouthshire: 1. St Michael's Church, Glascoed 2. Mount Zion Chapel, Glascoed 3. Capel yr Ynys, Cefn Crib, Llanhilleth 4. St Peter's Church, Bryngwyn Photography of all these subjects is by Steve Vesey Go to www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/churches/ and search the index for the "Glascoed", "Cefn Crib" and "Bryngwyn - St Peter" links. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

I have been searching for years for the death of Lettice Sambrook, widow of Thomas, mariner, of Fishguard between 1851, when she is ennumerated as Ann Sambruck in Lower Town, and 1861, where she does not appear. I now have her death certificate form August 1860, but this death does not appear in the ONS indexes. On examination of the online scans, it seems that the page on which she should appear is missing. I have reported it. I am posting this in case anyone else has the same brick wall. I obtained the certificate from the Haverfordwest Register Office after finding her burial record in the Fishguard PRs Regards Roger -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 540 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Merv Thomas <merv.thomas@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: So far, I've traced my THOMAS's back through various means to Cellan. The 1851 census shows Thomas & Anne on a farm called Lluest while the 1841 census shows them at a place called Llyastucha. My question is this: is it possible that these 2 names refer to the same place? ============== Dear Merv, 'Llyastucha' could well be a corrupted version of 'Lluest Uchaf' (Upper Lluest), so I think you can take the two names as applying to the same property. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Roy I checked back to my email to you about this yesterday and see that I should have anticipated your later question posed below. Post-1836 Narberth Union Poor Law parish records, where extant, will be at the Pembrokeshire Record Office (PRO). I have looked at the records for Begelly (an adjoining parish to the south of Narberth). These do contain interesting material. However, the survival rate for parish poor law files in Pembrokeshire is low. Whether anything has survived for Narberth the PRO will advise. Apologies for the confusion. Jon In a message dated 21/01/2010 23:54:55 GMT Standard Time, roydavies@gmail.com writes: Therefore if outdoor relief continued to be provided in Pembrokeshire in certain cases after 1834 (and I don't suppose there would have been much point in describing someone in the census as a pauper unless they were in receipt of assistance) where would such information be recorded? Presumably (and I could be wrong here) the workhouse records would only have dealt with people in workhouses and not those receiving outdoor relief. Roy

Dear Roy All good questions - and someone who knows the parish records of Narberth or of Narberth Poor Law Union better than I is the person to answer them. They will either lie in the church records - in items like Churchwardens Accounts or Overseers of the Poor Accounts or in the records of Narberth Union Workhouse - if they survive for your dates of interest. Otherwise pauper could just mean you were too poor to be assessed for church or poor rates. Apprenticeships were often just agreed, especially if family members were related to the apprentice. The thing that most often drove the parish was minimisation of expenditure, so having children apprenticed relieved the parish of any expenditure. Any clues in who they were living with in the 1841 Census? Don't forget that if their mother was still alive it is more likely to be her relatives who were involved - so the masters may have a very different set of surnames - if for example they were uncles or cousins by marriage to the mother. Brian Brian Picton Swann -----Original Message----- From: dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roy Davies Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:48 PM To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Subject: [Dyfed] Support for paupers and their children before and after 1834 In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial assistance from the authorities? She was living in one of the two cottages in Redstone near Sodstone in Narberth parish with her daughter Bridget James, who was a seamstress. Mary James had been living in Redstone, probably in the same cottage, since the 1841 census. In the 1851 census, she was living on her own and described not as a pauper but as a "farmer's widow" and in the 1841 census when she was living with another daughter, Sarah, and one of her sons, George she was described simply as a "widow." Her husband, John James, had died in June 1833, the year before the change to the Poor Law, and a newspaper report of the circumstances of his death said that he had been "in a state of despondency from poverty." Therefore it seems likely that his widow Mary James had been a pauper ever since her husband's death, if not earlier. Their three sons were all born in Narberth parish, probably in Sodstone to be more precise. They were John, born in about 1818, George in about 1820 and David in about 1824. Instead of becoming farmers like their father, they all became stone masons. Who would have paid for their apprenticeships? Would the authorities have done that after their father's death or if they had a relation who was a stone mason would he have taught them the trade without any involvement by the authorities? If Mary James and/or her sons had received financial assistance from the public purse would there be any surviving records of that? If so where would they be found? Roy ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello the list, So far, I've traced my THOMAS's back through various means to Cellan. The 1851 census shows Thomas & Anne on a farm called Lluest while the 1841 census shows them at a place called Llyastucha. My question is this: is it possible that these 2 names refer to the same place? I could find no reference to Llyastucha on GENUKI or the Dyfed FHS websites. I'm also having trouble deciphering the house names on the census image and the ones I can read, I can't find on my maps. I don't know if anyone can shed any light - in the overall scheme of things it's not important, but - I just like to know where people were. Thanks, Merv.

I had heard some years ago that there was a practice some years ago among Welsh people of adopting 'Lewis' as some sort of rough equivalent to 'Llewelyn' (however you may wish to spell it). I can only presume this was to have an equivalent that English tongues can handle without difficulty. Now I have come across a relative (my Taid's first cousin) who I had listed as 'John Lewis Williams' but who is mentioned in a new book as 'John Llewelyn Williams' and I am wondering whether what I had heard about using 'Lewis' for 'Llewelyn' was a common practice. Has anyone come across this practice and if it was adopted, how widespread was it? David Canberra

Hello Jon, Thanks for the information about various records. Unfortunately Mary James died in 1869 which would probably be slightly too early to be included the biannual reports which you said date from about 1871, however I will have to check that. Also, if I am lucky she and/or her sons might be mentioned in the other sources you mentioned. I won't know until I try! I will also peruse Higginbotham's site in more detail for background information. Thanks, Roy On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:42 PM, <jonmein@aol.com> wrote: > Hello Roy > > I agree with Gareth that Higginbotham's site is excellent for a general > overview of the poor law system. > > As to the Narberth records... > > Pre-1837: try the Pembrokeshire Record Office (PRO) to see if any  Narberth > parish poor law records survives. > > 1837 -: there are a couple of options but they depend on whether  your > ancestors were subject to discussion/vote by the Board of Guardians.  eg. there > may be a record of a decision to put the sons into apprenticeship. Any  such > vote will be recorded in the minute books - see the archiveswales site  for > more details. > > _http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=12423&inst_i > d=32&term=narberth_ > (http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=12423&inst_id=32&term=narberth) > > Secondly, the Poor Law letter files held at The National Archives at Kew > hold a treasure trove of information about individual cases. For these to be > useful your ancestor again must have been the subject of a problem which > the local guardians or other interested parties applied to the Poor Law > Commissioners in London for guidance on. I have found correspondence about  one > of my ancestors from a do-gooder in the parish complaining that my ancestor > should not be paid relief as she had no place of settlement in this > parish. Search for Narberth in the TNA catalogue under class MH 12 to see  what is > available. > > _http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1_ > (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1) > > I'd err on the side of caution suggesting that there will be something in > these files for you. But you never know! > > If your ancestor was still alive around 1871 and in receipt of poor relief > living at home or in the workhouse, then there is a sequence of bi-annual > reports held at PRO that lists ALL paupers in receipt of relief in the > Narberth  Poor Law district. The reports also list the amount of relief paid and > for  what purpose eg contribution to funeral. PRO's ref is HDX 1026/1/.... > If memory  serves me right there are 15 reports up to about 1881. This is a > great  collection of documents and I found several surprises in them relating > to my  family. > > Jon > >

This might be helpful if it isn't too early.   Overseers of the Poor in Pembrokeshire http://www.pembrokeshire.gov.uk/objview.asp?Language=&object_id=4027   especially the last para. on page 6.  Vestry Books also contained details of individual awards to paupers, but I couldnt trace one for Narberth itself. The Pembs Record Office should be able to help.   Jen     --- On Thu, 21/1/10, Roy Davies <roydavies@gmail.com> wrote: From: Roy Davies <roydavies@gmail.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Support for paupers and their children before and after 1834 To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, 21 January, 2010, 16:48 In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial assistance from the authorities? She was living in one of the two cottages in Redstone near Sodstone in Narberth parish with her daughter Bridget James, who was a seamstress. Mary James had been living in Redstone, probably in the same cottage, since the 1841 census. In the 1851 census, she was living on her own and described not as a pauper but as a "farmer's widow" and in the 1841 census when she was living with another daughter, Sarah, and one of her sons, George she was described simply as a "widow." Her husband, John James, had died in June 1833, the year before the change to the Poor Law, and a newspaper report of the circumstances of his death said that he had been "in a state of despondency from poverty." Therefore it seems likely that his widow Mary James had been a pauper ever since her husband's death, if not earlier. Their three sons were all born in Narberth parish, probably in Sodstone to be more precise. They were John, born in about 1818, George in about 1820 and David in about 1824. Instead of becoming farmers like their father, they all became stone masons. Who would have paid for their apprenticeships? Would the authorities have done that after their father's death or if they had a relation who was a stone mason would he have taught them the trade without any involvement by the authorities? If Mary James and/or her sons had received financial assistance from the public purse would there be any surviving records of that? If so where would they be found? Roy ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Gareth, Although Peter Higginbotham's site is interesting it does not seem to me to be very relevant to my enquiry since Mary James and her children did not live in a workhouse but in a cottage in Redstone. I know that the Royal Commission on the Poor Law recommended in 1832 that outdoor relief be abolished and that paupers should be forced to live in workhouses if they wanted any assistance but according to the article on the Poor Laws in Wikipedia "the recommendation of the Royal Commission that 'outdoor relief' (relief given outside of a workhouse)[55] should be abolished – was never implemented." Furthermore the Wikipedia article goes on to say: "Despite efforts to ban outdoor relief parishes continued to offer it as a more cost effective method of dealing with pauperism. The Outdoor Labour Test Order[64] and Outdoor Relief Prohibitory Order[65] were both issued in order to try and prevent people receiving relief outside of the workhouse. Despite these later edicts it is notable that the Poor Law Amendment Act did not ban all forms of outdoor relief.[66]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Poor_Laws Therefore if outdoor relief continued to be provided in Pembrokeshire in certain cases after 1834 (and I don't suppose there would have been much point in describing someone in the census as a pauper unless they were in receipt of assistance) where would such information be recorded? Presumably (and I could be wrong here) the workhouse records would only have dealt with people in workhouses and not those receiving outdoor relief. Roy On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Gareth <tirbach@clara.co.uk> wrote: >>In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a >> "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial >> assistance from the authorities? > > Hi Roy > Peter Higginbotham's excellent site should tell you all you would want to > know about paupers and workhouses - mayb take some digging around as there's > a lot on there > http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/index.html > > Gareth > Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/ > Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html > Cwmgors/Waun http://www.tytwp.plus.com/Waun/Waun.html

>In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a > "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial > assistance from the authorities? Hi Roy Peter Higginbotham's excellent site should tell you all you would want to know about paupers and workhouses - mayb take some digging around as there's a lot on there http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/index.html Gareth Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/ Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html Cwmgors/Waun http://www.tytwp.plus.com/Waun/Waun.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com> To: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:48 PM Subject: [Dyfed] Support for paupers and their children before and after 1834 > In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a > "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial > assistance from the authorities? She was living in one of the two > cottages in Redstone near Sodstone in Narberth parish with her > daughter Bridget James, who was a seamstress. Mary James had been > living in Redstone, probably in the same cottage, since the 1841 > census. > > In the 1851 census, she was living on her own and described not as a > pauper but as a "farmer's widow" and in the 1841 census when she was > living with another daughter, Sarah, and one of her sons, George she > was described simply as a "widow." > > Her husband, John James, had died in June 1833, the year before the > change to the Poor Law, and a newspaper report of the circumstances of > his death said that he had been "in a state of despondency from > poverty." Therefore it seems likely that his widow Mary James had been > a pauper ever since her husband's death, if not earlier. Their three > sons were all born in Narberth parish, probably in Sodstone to be more > precise. They were John, born in about 1818, George in about 1820 and > David in about 1824. Instead of becoming farmers like their father, > they all became stone masons. > > Who would have paid for their apprenticeships? Would the authorities > have done that after their father's death or if they had a relation > who was a stone mason would he have taught them the trade without any > involvement by the authorities? > > If Mary James and/or her sons had received financial assistance from > the public purse would there be any surviving records of that? If so > where would they be found? > > Roy >

In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial assistance from the authorities? She was living in one of the two cottages in Redstone near Sodstone in Narberth parish with her daughter Bridget James, who was a seamstress. Mary James had been living in Redstone, probably in the same cottage, since the 1841 census. In the 1851 census, she was living on her own and described not as a pauper but as a "farmer's widow" and in the 1841 census when she was living with another daughter, Sarah, and one of her sons, George she was described simply as a "widow." Her husband, John James, had died in June 1833, the year before the change to the Poor Law, and a newspaper report of the circumstances of his death said that he had been "in a state of despondency from poverty." Therefore it seems likely that his widow Mary James had been a pauper ever since her husband's death, if not earlier. Their three sons were all born in Narberth parish, probably in Sodstone to be more precise. They were John, born in about 1818, George in about 1820 and David in about 1824. Instead of becoming farmers like their father, they all became stone masons. Who would have paid for their apprenticeships? Would the authorities have done that after their father's death or if they had a relation who was a stone mason would he have taught them the trade without any involvement by the authorities? If Mary James and/or her sons had received financial assistance from the public purse would there be any surviving records of that? If so where would they be found? Roy

Photos of: Bethel Chapel, Bassaleg, MON; and St Basil's Church, Bassaleg, MON Dear Listers, The latest subjects to be added to my 'Welsh Churches and Chapels Collection' are: 1. Bethel Baptist Chapel, Penylan Rd, Pentre-poeth, Bassaleg, Monmouthshire; (photography by Steve Veysey). 2. St Basil's Parish Church, Bassaleg, Monmouthshire; (photography by Steve Veysey). Go to www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/churches/ and search the index for the "Bassaleg - Bethel" and Bassaleg - St Basil" links. Also today, I have added to existing webpages: - a splendid new photograph (by Derek Savage) of St Mary's Church (go to Abbeycwmhir - St Mary, RAD); - a photograph (by Derek Savage) of a wall plaque at Newchapel (go to Newchapel, MGY). Many thanks to Derek Savage and Steve Veysey for sending me a selection of their fine church and chapel photographs. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Roy I agree with Gareth that Higginbotham's site is excellent for a general overview of the poor law system. As to the Narberth records... Pre-1837: try the Pembrokeshire Record Office (PRO) to see if any Narberth parish poor law records survives. 1837 -: there are a couple of options but they depend on whether your ancestors were subject to discussion/vote by the Board of Guardians. eg. there may be a record of a decision to put the sons into apprenticeship. Any such vote will be recorded in the minute books - see the archiveswales site for more details. _http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=12423&inst_i d=32&term=narberth_ (http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=12423&inst_id=32&term=narberth) Secondly, the Poor Law letter files held at The National Archives at Kew hold a treasure trove of information about individual cases. For these to be useful your ancestor again must have been the subject of a problem which the local guardians or other interested parties applied to the Poor Law Commissioners in London for guidance on. I have found correspondence about one of my ancestors from a do-gooder in the parish complaining that my ancestor should not be paid relief as she had no place of settlement in this parish. Search for Narberth in the TNA catalogue under class MH 12 to see what is available. _http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1_ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1) I'd err on the side of caution suggesting that there will be something in these files for you. But you never know! If your ancestor was still alive around 1871 and in receipt of poor relief living at home or in the workhouse, then there is a sequence of bi-annual reports held at PRO that lists ALL paupers in receipt of relief in the Narberth Poor Law district. The reports also list the amount of relief paid and for what purpose eg contribution to funeral. PRO's ref is HDX 1026/1/.... If memory serves me right there are 15 reports up to about 1881. This is a great collection of documents and I found several surprises in them relating to my family. Jon In a message dated 21/01/2010 17:08:21 GMT Standard Time, tirbach@clara.co.uk writes: >In the 1861 census a relative of mine, Mary James, was described as a > "pauper." Does that mean that she would have been receiving financial > assistance from the authorities? Hi Roy Peter Higginbotham's excellent site should tell you all you would want to know about paupers and workhouses - mayb take some digging around as there's a lot on there http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/index.html Gareth Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/ Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html Cwmgors/Waun http://www.tytwp.plus.com/Waun/Waun.html

David For my own experience in Wales it tends to be more that people shorten Llewelyn to "Llew" or "Lew" or "Lou".  So it maybe that outstide of Wales this has been assumed/become "Lewis"  Of course others may have different experiences!] Megan ________________________________ From: David Rowlands <drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> To: Glamorgan List <Glamorgan@rootsweb.com>; Dyfed DYFED <Dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, 21 January, 2010 8:39:32 Subject: [Dyfed] Names: Llewelyn and Lewis I had heard some years ago that there was a practice some years ago  among Welsh people of adopting 'Lewis' as some sort of rough  equivalent to 'Llewelyn' (however you may wish to spell it). I can  only presume this was to have an equivalent that English tongues can  handle without difficulty. Now I have come across a relative (my Taid's first cousin) who I had  listed as 'John Lewis Williams' but who is mentioned in a new book as  'John Llewelyn Williams' and I am wondering whether what I had heard  about using 'Lewis' for 'Llewelyn' was a common practice. Has anyone come across this practice and if it was adopted, how  widespread was it? David Canberra ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Annie & all I have not traced him back to Llanfair Clydogau yet. The earliest I have him is the 1871 census at a location - Erwe Cwmtwrch, Conwil Cayo - a 30yr old carpenter born Cardigan, Llanfair. His wife & presumed children all born Cellan except for the youngest William born Cayo. Thanks Tommy -----Original Message----- From: dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of cardi2@aol.com Sent: 21 January 2010 02:11 To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Subject: [Dyfed] re CGN, CELLAN Tommy: What farm name do you have for your Jones family in Cellan or Llanfair Clydogau? Send me your info as I may be able to help you in the Cellan/Llanfair Clydogau area. My family came from there. Annie rom: Tommy (Dyfed) <dyfed@tommye.plus.com> To: 'MERVYN Davies' <merv.davies@virginmedia.com>; DYFED@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Dyfed] JONES: Llanfair Orllwyn, Cards. Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:46 -0000 Mervyn Do you know any more about the family? I have a David JONES born about 1840 in Llanfair CGN. Now I do not know if this was Llanfair Orllwyn or Llanfair Clydogau. He married a Rachel - born about 1840 in Cellan CGN and they had a daughter Elizabeth born about 1867 again in Cellan. She was my great grandmother - married to John EVANS born about 1862 Conwil Caio. Any connection? Tommy ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi David, See Welsh Surnames, Morgan and Morgan. (here is a summary) Medieval Welsh clerks would use Anglo-Norman names as substitutes for Welsh names. Llywelyn, in its abbreviated form of Llew (possibly pron. Lew) would be identified with Lewis (anglicised form of Louis). Lewis and Llywelyn were interchangeable. A man named Llywelyn would call himself, or be called Lewis. Your example is evidence of this. Lewis would quite often, be used as the official name, hence the widespread use of Lewis as a surname in Wales. Best wishes, Deric. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Rowlands" <drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> To: "Glamorgan List" <Glamorgan@rootsweb.com>; "Dyfed DYFED" <Dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:39 AM Subject: [GLA] Names: Llewelyn and Lewis > > I had heard some years ago that there was a practice some years ago > among Welsh people of adopting 'Lewis' as some sort of rough > equivalent to 'Llewelyn' (however you may wish to spell it). I can > only presume this was to have an equivalent that English tongues can > handle without difficulty. > > Now I have come across a relative (my Taid's first cousin) who I had > listed as 'John Lewis Williams' but who is mentioned in a new book as > 'John Llewelyn Williams' and I am wondering whether what I had heard > about using 'Lewis' for 'Llewelyn' was a common practice. > > Has anyone come across this practice and if it was adopted, how > widespread was it? > > David > Canberra > -- > > To send to the list send to glamorgan@rootsweb.com > GLAMORGAN Family History Mailing List archives etc. are at > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/GLAMORGAN.html > - > A large amount of information, and a wide variety of useful links, may be > found at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/ > > - > The South/West Wales Lookup Exchange and Gareth's Help Pages > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html and > http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GLAMORGAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Tommy: What farm name do you have for your Jones family in Cellan or Llanfair Clydogau? Send me your info as I may be able to help you in the Cellan/Llanfair Clydogau area. My family came from there. Annie rom: Tommy (Dyfed) <dyfed@tommye.plus.com> To: 'MERVYN Davies' <merv.davies@virginmedia.com>; DYFED@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Dyfed] JONES: Llanfair Orllwyn, Cards. Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:36:46 -0000 Mervyn Do you know any more about the family? I have a David JONES born about 1840 in Llanfair CGN. Now I do not know if this was Llanfair Orllwyn or Llanfair Clydogau. He married a Rachel - born about 1840 in Cellan CGN and they had a daughter Elizabeth born about 1867 again in Cellan. She was my great grandmother - married to John EVANS born about 1862 Conwil Caio. Any connection? Tommy