Money was a common why of avoiding a man being named, that and throwing families out of their homes (when the father of the woman worked for the "Noble Lord"), I have heard of cases were the registrars refused to put the name in but I don't know how truthful that is. Eliz On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Jennifer Cairns <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear List > > I have three missing person problems on the go at the moment - and would appreciate thoughts on the subject of hiding illegitimate births... > > Two are Cardiganshire, and one is Bristol.  Two definitely involve illegitimate births - in one case the mother might have been local (Cardi) minor gentry and in the second case (Bristol area) the father was of a gentry family (not known if the noble Lord, or his brother a clergyman). In the third case there is a possibility that there might have been some scandal which involved the (same) local Cardi minor gentry and a married man - exact details are not known - but no birth involved, or known of.  The missing man might of course have been sent to prison for some reason..... > > ....   with the two illegit.  births it has proved impossible to track down the registration/baptism of either of the two children involved. Although both children were taken abroad, one to Australia having been adopted (possibly by the brother [and his wife] of the putative father - who had earlier gone suddenly to Australia) - the second Glos/Bristol child was taken to the USA in the company of the mother who married rapidly there and ended up in Argentina. > .... in the third case, cause of scandal unknown, the father of the family disappeared, not findable thereon-in in any census or record.. but it has been suggested that the new husband quickly acquired by the apparently deserted wife was actually the same chap using a different name - so might have been a prison related incident. > > My question is this > We all know that Parish Registers faithfully record (or apparently faithfully record) illegitimate births .... but what scenario/template did gentry folk employ to hide their involvement in "scandals" of this sort.  Would children have been registered to any pattern of surname name choosing, and where would the girls have gone to give birth - family, or institute.  With adoptions dating to around 1910/11 is there any chance of finding adoption papers - and where?  Both the cases where I know of live births that then emigrated would have surely needed some form of ID to either leave or enter their countries of choice - but I am ignorant on this matter. > > Perhaps there is no pattern - but maybe a Lister has similar experiences in their researches and can offer suggestions. > > Many thanks > > Jen > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 22/5/12 09:50, "Megan Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote: > A couple of months ago I asked the list to help find records for the family of > my gt. grandmother, Mary Ann Couzens (surname can be spelt in many different > ways) born 1868 in Johnston, and had some really useful help.  One of the > ³left-over² mysteries concerned her older sister Hannah born about 1864. In > the 1871 census Hannah was living with her parents, and in the 1881 she was a > dairymaid on a farm. After that she vanished.  I could not even find a birth > record for her.  Now however, I have found her and thought that I would let > you know how, as it might help others with similar quandries.   In the 1911 > Census, their aunt Esther O'Connell was recorded as having a 19 year old niece > called Ethel Maud Walters born in Mumbles living with her. So wanting to know > who Ethel was and how she fitted into the tree, I looked for her in the 1901 > census. There she was with her mother Anna Cooze and step-father Joseph Cooze > living in Cardiff.   So now who was Anna Cooze?  I soon discovered that she > had married as Anna Walters in 1900.  So now who was Anna Walters?  The 1901 > census had other children from what must have been a first marriage living > with her, and they were all born in Furzy Hill.  Using that information I back > tracked to the 1891 census, discovering that her first husband was John > Walters.   So then I looked for a marriage of John Walters to an Anna.  The > only one that fitted was an Anna Maria Couzens, who had a birth record in 1864 > in Haverfordwest, but did not appear in either the 1871 or 1881 census.  I had > no idea who she was or how she was related to my family tree, so I ordered her > birth certificate which arrived yesterday, and low and behold she was a sister > to my gt grandmother Mary Ann.   I now conclude that Hannah must have been a > mis-transcription of Anna - perhaps they were trying to sound posh, and > sounding a non-existent H before her name. Megan  Well done Megan Just shows what persistence and a bit of lateral thinking can do. You'll have to change your name to Megan Jane Marple-Roberts! Gerry Lewis

A couple of months ago I asked the list to help find records for the family of my gt. grandmother, Mary Ann Couzens (surname can be spelt in many different ways) born 1868 in Johnston, and had some really useful help.  One of the “left-over” mysteries concerned her older sister Hannah born about 1864. In the 1871 census Hannah was living with her parents, and in the 1881 she was a dairymaid on a farm. After that she vanished.  I could not even find a birth record for her.  Now however, I have found her and thought that I would let you know how, as it might help others with similar quandries.   In the 1911 Census, their aunt Esther O'Connell was recorded as having a 19 year old niece called Ethel Maud Walters born in Mumbles living with her. So wanting to know who Ethel was and how she fitted into the tree, I looked for her in the 1901 census. There she was with her mother Anna Cooze and step-father Joseph Cooze living in Cardiff.   So now who was Anna Cooze?  I soon discovered that she had married as Anna Walters in 1900.  So now who was Anna Walters?  The 1901 census had other children from what must have been a first marriage living with her, and they were all born in Furzy Hill.  Using that information I back tracked to the 1891 census, discovering that her first husband was John Walters.   So then I looked for a marriage of John Walters to an Anna.  The only one that fitted was an Anna Maria Couzens, who had a birth record in 1864 in Haverfordwest, but did not appear in either the 1871 or 1881 census.  I had no idea who she was or how she was related to my family tree, so I ordered her birth certificate which arrived yesterday, and low and behold she was a sister to my gt grandmother Mary Ann.   I now conclude that Hannah must have been a mis-transcription of Anna - perhaps they were trying to sound posh, and sounding a non-existent H before her name. Megan 

----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Reay To: Dyfed List Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 12:50 PM Subject: New question regarding Gelli Chapel? Hello List, As the list is quiet at the moment then I will ask a question please! Does anyone know anything about the book being written on Gelli (Gelly) Chapel near Llawhaden? Apparently, a book is being written on the chapel and its 150 year old history. Has it been written ... or is it still being written? I would just really like to find out. Any information would be much appreciated. I have a keen interest in the chapel as my great great great grandfather, John Williams was instrumental in it's creation and he was the first person to be buried in the graveyard! Any news on this subject would be much appreciated! THANK YOU! Kind regards, Sarah in Northumberland.

Hello List, As the list is quiet at the moment then I will ask a question please! Does anyone know anything about the book being written on Gelli (Gelly) Chapel near Llawhaden? Apparently, a book is being written on the chapel and its 150 year old history. Has it been written ... or is it still being written? I would just really like to find out. Any information would be much appreciated. I have a keen interest in the chapel as my great great great grandfather, John Williams was instrumental in it's creation and he was the first person to be buried in the graveyard! Any news on this subject would be much appreciated! THANK YOU! Kind regards, Sarah in Northumberland.

On 21/5/12 11:07, "yvonne evans" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello List, > I am getting more and more puzzled as to why I am not seeing messages from > the Dyfed List. A few weeks ago I re-subscribd with my new email address, and > received a message that eveything was now O.K,as regards my availability on > Dyfed rootsweb. I am though getting around 8 messages a day from Glamorgan > list which I have also subscribed to. However the Dyfed ist is by far my > main interest. > I should be very grateful if I could have some clarification. However I did > receive replies to a query regarding the "Peregrine" tree approx 10 days go. > It may be of course that there are just no messages to view, I am not > expecting messges to myself. > Many thanks > Yvnne Evans Hello Yvonne I believe the reason that lists aren't being used as much as some years ago is that so much information is now available on the web that people researching their families have fewer questions to ask. We (researchers of long standing) are here to help when newcomers come up against problems and we do our best to assist. We can also help with topographical questions about Dyfed - my area of particular interest is Pembrokeshire. What I find most useful is when listers post information about web sites they have come across - please continue to do so. Gerry Lewis - lister for not quite as many years as Gareth Hicks

yvonne evans wrote: > I am getting more and more puzzled as to why I am not seeing > messages from the Dyfed List. The list is quiet, as is common to all lists to a greater or lesser degree. It's always best to check the archives to see if there have been any mails, check your junk mail folders (webview and email client) just in case there have been mails which in a moment of madness one or other has suddenly decided legit mails aren't. Otherwise contact the list admin for help. Instead of a steady flow of mails as there used to be, it seems to be spasmodic flurries followed by a period of somnabulism. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Hello Yvonne If you look at http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/WLS/DYFED.html and click the BROWSE link you can see the number of monthly messages since time began and 26 (at this moment as I write) listed for May 2012.  Not many I agree.   Glamorgan has 96 for May - which is also a falling off for the chatty lot there (!) and Powys has 16    Looking through past monthly figures of other counties there seems to be a general falling off for some reason even Surrey and Northampton - its not just us in Dyfed.   Any sociological or virtual reasons I wonder.   Cheers   Jen     From: yvonne evans <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012, 11:07 Subject: [Dyfed] scarcity of emails/messages Hello List, I am getting more and more puzzled as to why I am not seeing  messages from the Dyfed List. A few weeks ago I re-subscribd with my new email address, and received a message that eveything  was now O.K,as regards my availability on Dyfed rootsweb.  I am though getting around 8 messages a day from Glamorgan list which I have also subscribed to.  However the Dyfed ist is by far my main interest. I should be very grateful if I could have some clarification. However I did receive replies to a query regarding the "Peregrine" tree approx  10 days go. It may be of course that there are just no messages to view, I am not expecting messges to myself. Many thanks Yvnne Evans ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Received this email okay. David -----Original Message----- From: yvonne evans Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Dyfed] scarcity of emails/messages Hello List, I am getting more and more puzzled as to why I am not seeing messages from the Dyfed List. A few weeks ago I re-subscribd with my new email address, and received a message that eveything was now O.K,as regards my availability on Dyfed rootsweb. I am though getting around 8 messages a day from Glamorgan list which I have also subscribed to. However the Dyfed ist is by far my main interest. I should be very grateful if I could have some clarification. However I did receive replies to a query regarding the "Peregrine" tree approx 10 days go. It may be of course that there are just no messages to view, I am not expecting messges to myself. Many thanks Yvnne Evans ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5012 - Release Date: 05/20/12

Hello List, I am getting more and more puzzled as to why I am not seeing messages from the Dyfed List. A few weeks ago I re-subscribd with my new email address, and received a message that eveything was now O.K,as regards my availability on Dyfed rootsweb. I am though getting around 8 messages a day from Glamorgan list which I have also subscribed to. However the Dyfed ist is by far my main interest. I should be very grateful if I could have some clarification. However I did receive replies to a query regarding the "Peregrine" tree approx 10 days go. It may be of course that there are just no messages to view, I am not expecting messges to myself. Many thanks Yvnne Evans

Many thanks to Rhodri Dafis for helping me with this query. Dai On 17/05/2012 09:25, Dai & Angela Bevan wrote: > Hello all, > Can anyone confirm for me that Salem, Brongest, MI are on the Rhydlewis > district fiche? I have the MI for Llangranog, Penbryn, Aberporth and > Llandygwydd, and it is on none of those. > I am trying to find the MI for Margaret and David Thomas, Pantrholiad, > and Daniel& Catherine Evans, whose funeral was held at Salem. > > Thanks, > Dai > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello all, Can anyone confirm for me that Salem, Brongest, MI are on the Rhydlewis district fiche? I have the MI for Llangranog, Penbryn, Aberporth and Llandygwydd, and it is on none of those. I am trying to find the MI for Margaret and David Thomas, Pantrholiad, and Daniel & Catherine Evans, whose funeral was held at Salem. Thanks, Dai

Thank you for the 2 answers and I found it on the map - this is a very clever tool. I thought it might have been towards Johnston but it fits well with the rest. all the Best, AndyDate: Wed, 16 May 2012 07:45:45 +0100 From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Pembs - Llangwm Furzy Hill To: [email protected]; [email protected] Hi Andy There is a current place in Hook called Furzey Crescent - postcode SA62 4NE. If you search that postcode on the interactive maps on http://maps.pembrokeshire.gov.uk/connect/ and then click onto the 1891 map, it shows the area as being called Furzy Hill. Hope this is the place you're looking for. Sandra From: Andy Philpin <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, 15 May 2012, 23:01 Subject: [Dyfed] Pembs - Llangwm Furzy Hill Hi all, Does anybody know where the area known as Furzy Hill in the Llangwm parish is? It is mentioned in the 19th century but not in a modern context. All the Best, Andy ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Andy   There is a current place in Hook called Furzey Crescent - postcode SA62 4NE.  If you search that postcode on the interactive maps on   http://maps.pembrokeshire.gov.uk/connect/ and then click onto the 1891 map, it shows the area as being called Furzy Hill.   Hope this is the place you're looking for.   Sandra     ________________________________ From: Andy Philpin <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, 15 May 2012, 23:01 Subject: [Dyfed] Pembs - Llangwm Furzy Hill Hi all, Does anybody know where the area known as Furzy Hill in the Llangwm parish is?  It is mentioned in the 19th century but not in a modern context. All the Best, Andy                         ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Andy It's just by Hook Bridge. I can send you a map offlist if you like. Pat In message <[email protected]>, Andy Philpin <[email protected]> writes > > > > >Hi all, Does anybody know where the area known as Furzy Hill in the Llangwm >parish is? It is mentioned in the 19th century but not in a modern context. All >the Best, Andy > >================================ >Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of >the message -- pat

Hi all, Does anybody know where the area known as Furzy Hill in the Llangwm parish is? It is mentioned in the 19th century but not in a modern context. All the Best, Andy

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Namens E.Schreuder Verzonden: maandag 14 mei 2012 22:14 Aan: [email protected] Onderwerp: [Dyfed] 1901 census felinfoel/llanelly Hello list, Has somebody come across the Roberts family from the Red Lion Inn Felinfoel. Edward Roberts and his wife Sarah Ann Roberts, both born 1847. Couple had at least 4 daugthers. One married into the Griffith family Park Vieuw. Found out that they are buried at Holy Trinity Felinfoel. Elwyn - netherlands. ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 2012.0.1913 / Virusdatabase: 2425/4998 - datum van uitgifte: 05/14/12

Hello list, Has somebody come across the Roberts family from the Red Lion Inn Felinfoel. Edward Roberts and his wife Sarah Ann Roberts, both born 1847. Couple had at least 4 daugthers. One married into the Griffith family Park Vieuw. Found out that they are buried at Holy Trinity Felinfoel. Elwyn - netherlands.

Dear Gareth   Fascinating - thanks for the link - not only the counting methods, but your other inputs as well.   Paper from a 1999 Archeaology Journal http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba46/ba46int.html   This says mentions the work of "...David Thomas OBE, a former school inspector in Wales. Thomas had collected detailed systems from Yorkshire, Durham, Roxburgh and Essex. He too had been fascinated by these ancient counting systems as evidence of the survival of a brythonic population probably subjugated, but used as a labour force, by the Saxon overlords."   He published his research in his book Animal Call Words (Spurrell) in 1939. ALSO the work appeared as Volume XIV of the Cardiganshire Antiquarian Society Transactions.   I found it hard to track down, so had to wait for a visit to the Nat Lib which has copies.  Thomas demonstrates the possibility of both the numbering system mentioned in the Radnor journal AND animal call words being much older than I had suspected. (In some instances very likely to possibly be 4000 years).  Thomas suggests that the numbering and callwords probably were part of the Goidelic tradition, taken over by the Brythonic invaders later. Worth a peep if one is interested.  He has some great theories about callwords (puss puss, geeup, wo etc etc) and the welsh numbering system  - can all be traced back thousands of years - and his theories are based on archaeology findings.  Certain items found coincide with certain patterns of call names. AND these patterns of counting etc are not confined to Wales.      NB David Thomas was a HMI for the Cardiganshire area,  and researched local knowledge from school pupils extensively (around 1926) including local tales and information from my great grandmother which explains a lot !   Jen          Davies, D Stedman  Rev.          Welsh method of counting Radnorshire Society Transactions    vol. 15  1945  Welsh Journals Online http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/listarticles/llgc-id:1191402/llgc-id:1192569 Something I'd always wondered about.......... Gareth

Hi List, Many thanks everyone who answered me. I am convinced there is a relatiosip with the Peregrines of Meline, but as yet have not found out. However I omitted to inform the List that Anne Peregrine wife of John was born Llanycefn Pembrokeshire. I am rather puzzled as to why the answer "No" for Pembrokeshire appeared on 1841 census" Abergarenydd" Llandissilio West. She has put Llanycefen as place of birth on all subsequent censuses. I wonder of course if 1841 Anne is a different Anne to Anne of of all other censuses(born Llanycefn). However that would mean Anne of Llanycefn would be a stepmother to all of the Peregrine children. Unfortunately there are no records of John Peregrine getting married anywhere at all at an appropriate time either at time of first marriage or possible second marriage. That is why I am wondering if he was kown as John John , or slight possibility John Perkins.. John Peregrine was born Llandissilio East in approx 1796. That was Carmarthenshire. I have found in E.T. Lewis Book "Efailwen to Whitland" published in 1970's, that a Thomas Peregrine was a member of Hebron Independent Chapel, Hebron, around 1820s. This was quite near to Llandissilio. I believe him to be John Peregrines's brother. Therefore I need to find those chapel records, as I believe they do exist. Many thanks once again for all your interest Yvonne