This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------435C6A3878D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is interesting!!! Carole --------------435C6A3878D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from bl-30.rootsweb.com (bl-30.rootsweb.com [207.113.245.30]) by mail.midohio.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08781 for <malisiak@midohio.net>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-30.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04321; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:12:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:12:16 -0800 (PST) Old-To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:16:05 -0500 From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <taf2@po.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <36938C45.782B@po.cwru.edu> Organization: Case Western Reserve University Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@rootsweb.com References: <36a08002.137205661@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, <369187A8.90B06523@mail2.lcia.com>, <369260a9.0@139.134.5.33> Reply-To: taf2@po.cwru.edu Subject: Re: Spencer Questions - Despencer Resent-Message-ID: <"dUyVxB.A.SCB.Zt4k2"@bl-30.rootsweb.com> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/17478 X-Loop: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@rootsweb.com rhianne wrote: > > While the topic is being discussed,would anyone be able to comment on a > remark made in a volume on heraldry, alleging that Diana, Princes of Wales', > family, in fact, used arms that were of the Despencers and that they were > not in fact entitled to do so. This is not entirely accurate, but pretty close. The Spencer family was descended from a 14th century sheep farmer. When they were granted arms, they were given those of the Despencers, but differenced (changed) by the addition of three scallop shells. At the time the arms were granted, the use of differenced arms should be restricted to those descended in the male line from the earlier family, which the Spencers were not. However, it was also at a period in which sloppy genealogy was rampant, and led to many similar instances of sloppy heraldry. The situation as heraldry was first being systematized was entirely different. The Despencer arms themselves are differenced from those of their feudal masters (from the service of whom they also derived their surname), the Earls of Chester. (Many of the Chester gentry based their arms on those of their Earls.) These arms, in their turn, belonged to the Mandeville/Vere heraldry group, brought into Chester by marriage. (The following is from memory, but you get the idea of the process. For precise details, the group rec.heraldry would be better.) Mandeville/Vere group- variations of quarterly (subdivided into 4 quadrants) gold or silver and red Chester - quarterly, silver and red, over the red, fretty (a pattern of diagonal woven lines) gold Despencer - quarterly silver and red w/gold fret, over the whole thing a thick black diagonal line Spencer - quarterly silver and red w/gold fret, black diagonal, with three silver scallops on it For those interested, I did a quick search and came up with the following site, which shows the Spencer arms. The others can then be imagined by removing differences, step by step. http://www.baronage.co.uk/diana/di-arms1.html taf --------------435C6A3878D0--