Hello Maureen, You included just enough information for me to make a connection and find another ancestral cousin - Stephen DUTTON m. Nellie Vaughan whom I have added to my records. Below you will find a 10 generation Ahnentafel Report showing Stephen's lineage. Note that I do not have any siblings or descendants for Stephen. If you have any of these I would appreciate the data. Dick Dutton Researching my family tree! Trunk: DUTTON Major branches: ALLEN, BARTLETT, CUTLER, DOGGETT, DUNTEN, DUNTON, JENSON, LAKE, METCALF, PARTRIDGE, REYNOLDS, RICHARDS, SAWYER, SMITH, TRACY, TURNER, WEDGWOOD. Minor branches: ADAMS, ALDEN, BALL, BLACK, BLANCHARD, BREWSTER, BRIMHALL, CARY, COLBURN, HATCH, HOPKINS, HYDE, KIDDER, PERKINS, WARNER, WILLIAMS. Smaller Limbs: ALGER, ANDERSON, CLARK, DAVIS, FRENCH, ULLER, HALL, HARRIS, JOHNSON, KNAPP, McMILLAN, MERRICK, MILLER, MOORE, NELSON PARKER, TUTTLE - And many more. ====================================================== Seibler wrote: > Hello, > I am researching the Duttons from Hooksett, NH to Cadyville, NY. I am > new to genealogy and to the internet. Please excuse me if I am not > accurate on format. I'm learning... > I have a Stephen Dutton b. 1/27/1896, Cadyville, NY, married Nellie > Vaughan (b.5/10/1903, m.3/12/1920-21). His father was Roger Harvey > Dutton b. 5/4/1867. His father was Roger A. Dutton, Hooksett, NH who > left and settled in Cadyville, NY. Then I believe there is a Jacob > Dutton, and then a Thomas Dutton (son of John Dutton) who may have > come over from Wales. > > It seems there is alot of Duttons from MA and I have not seen anything > from NH yet. If there is anyone out there who may have information > regarding these Duttons please respond to seibler@pcfl.net . I am > getting more information from family this week. Thank you!=) > Maureen =================================================== 1 Stephen DUTTON. Born on 27 Jan 1896 in Cadyville, NY. On 12 Mar 1920/21 when Stephen was 24, he married Nellie VAUGHAN. 2 Roger Harvey DUTTON. Born on 4 May 1866 in Plattsburg, NY. 4 Roger A. DUTTON. Born on 25 Oct 1831 in Hooksett, NH. On 30 Nov 1854 when Roger A. was 23, he married Mary Jane ROACH. 5 Mary Jane ROACH. Born on 21 May 1832 in Hooksett, NH. 8 Jacob S. DUTTON. Born on 29 May 1811 in Chester, NH. Jacob S. died on 18 Jan 1863; he was 51. On 25 Oct 1829 when Jacob S. was 18, he married Alice HANSCOMB, in Barrington, NH. 9 Alice HANSCOMB. Born on 25 Nov 1810 in Barringtocn, NH. Alice died in Hooksett, NH in 1881; she was 70. 16 Roger DUTTON. Born on 8 Sep 1784 in Amherss, NH. Roger died on 28 May 1855; he was 70. In 1809 when Roger was 24, he married Rachel SAWYER. 17 Rachel SAWYER. Born on 5 Oct 1785 in Wilmington, Mass. Rachel died in Apr 1851; she was 65. 32 Jonathan DUTTON. Born on 4 Jul 1750 in Tewksbury, Mass. Jonathan died in 1785; he was 34. On 6 Jul 1780 when Jonathan was 30, he married Rebecca STEARNS, in Amherst, NH. 33 Rebecca STEARNS. Born abt 1754. Rebecca died in Weld, ME on 27 Jan 1828; she was 74. 64 Jonathan DUTTON. Born on 29 Mar 1727 in Billerica, Mass. On 7 Feb 1749 when Jonathan was 21, he married Abigail MEARS, in Tewksbury, Mass. 65 Abigail MEARS. Born abt 1727. 128 Jonathan DUTTON. Born on 4 Feb 1699 in Billerica, Mass. Jonathan died in Tewksbury, Mass on 23 Apr 1768; he was 69. On 22 Jun 1722 when Jonathan was 23, he married Sarah LEVISTONE, in Billerica, Mass. 129 Sarah LEVISTONE. Born abt 1700 in Billerica, Mass. 256 John DUTTON Sgt.1 Born on 2 Mar 1656 in Reading, Middlesex, MA.1,2 John died in Billerica, MA on 7 Apr 1735; he was 79.1 On 20 Sep 1681 when John was 25, he married Sarah SHED1, in Billerica, Middlesex, MA.1 257 Sarah SHED.1 Born on 30 Oct 1658 in Billerica, MA. Sarah died in Billerica, MA on 27 Feb 1720; she was 61. 258 John LEVISTON. Born abt 1680 in Scotland. Religion: I3835. John married Margaret ROSS. 259 Margaret ROSS. Born abt 1680 in Scotland. Religion: I3834. 512 Thomas DUTTON Sr. Born abt 1619 in Dutton, Cheshire, England. Thomas died in Billerica, Middlesex, MA on 22 Jan 1687; he was 68. In 1647 when Thomas was 28, he married Susannah PALMER, in Reading, Middlesex, MA. 513 Susannah (PALMER?). Born abt 1626 in Reading, Middlesex, MA.1 Susannah died in Billerica, Middlesex, MA on 27 Aug 1684; she was 58.1,3 514 Daniel SHED. Born on 25 Jun 1620 in England. Daniel died in Billerica, Middlesex, MA on 27 Jul 1708; he was 88. Daniel married Mary GURNEY. 515 Mary GURNEY. Born in 1628 in England. Mary died in Billerica, Middlesex, MA in 1658; she was 30. 1. Archibald F. Bennett, The Ancestory of Joseph Smith the Prophet, The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, April, 1929. 2. Gilbert Cope, Genealogy of the DUTTON Family of Pennsylvania, F.S. Hiickman, Printer, West Chester, PA, 1871, Higginson Genealogical Books, Salem, MA, 1997. 3. Billerica, Mass, Vital records of Billerica, Massachusetts, to the year 1850 1908, Boston, MA: New England Historic Genealogical Society Please report any corrections or additions to: Richard A. Dutton 325 Beal Parkway Fort Walton Beach, FL 32548-3956 Phone: 850-862-3327 FAX: 850-864-1444 E-mail: rad@emcst.com
hi, I'm looking for information on Jack Clayton Dutton b. 9 Nov 32 in (Ronoake?) VA m. Elizabeth Davis --- 1956? d. 2 May 81 (cremated). His parents were George Dutton and Rhoda (Phipps). Does anyone have any information that you can tie this family to? Thanks, Randy Lilley
At 09:12 PM 01/10/1999 -0500, "Doug Hall" <doughall@mediaone.net> wrote: >Here is one web page that claims a specific link between John Dutton of >Reading, Mass and the Duttons of Cheshire. This is not proven and is very >doubtful, if not impossible. > >http://idt.net/~barbour9/d0000/g0000028.html#I1563 > >Doug Hall Doug: This specific information is, I think likely, one of several repetitions of an error that has crept into the Mormons' Personal Ancestral File (the multi-CD database available at Family History Centers, not the program). It is instructive to follow the ancestry of Thomas Dutton of Reading, Woburn, and Billerica back; the four most recent generations of Duttons in his paternal line are patently impossible, with one family group containing children born over a period close to a century long, and one (perhaps the same one, I don't recall) with the father younger than some of his offspring. I believe, from viewing the "history of the record" notes in P.A.F., that the worst of the confusion is an artifact of the merging process used by the keepers of P.A.F. "Trust, but verify." Darrell A. Martin formerly of Dutton District, Springfield, Vermont currently in exile in Addison, Illinois darrellm@sprynet.com
Ooops . . . it is not a "test" but a "text" only list . . . . Mike -----Original Message----- From: Michael L. Dunton [mailto:miked@web-ster.com] Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 3:50 PM To: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: TWO QUESTIONS The mailing list is a test only, no attachment allowed list. This is by the design of the organization (Rootsweb) that provides this service to us. If you want to distribute a file, either paste it into a mail message (if it is short), or email the list and mail directly to interested parties. Hope this helps. Mike Dunton <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~ The Dunton Family Homesite http://www.web-ster.com/miked list manager for dutton-l@rootsweb.com & dunton-l@rootsweb.com <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~
Here is one web page that claims a specific link between John Dutton of Reading, Mass and the Duttons of Cheshire. This is not proven and is very doubtful, if not impossible. http://idt.net/~barbour9/d0000/g0000028.html#I1563 Doug Hall
Mike, >The Internet has been a wonderful tool for connecting family lines and >speeding up a process that once took years. I don't believe that you should >use it to replace scientific or genealogical proofing methods. Everything >that you read on the Internet must be treated as a secondary source at best >(e.g. scanned documents). The Internet does not take the place of you going >to a research library, a records facility, etc. and using your own >discernment. I fully agree. It is the reason that I often ask for primary sources from people who post ifnromation I am interested in. I can then check the source myself to verify the accuracy. I have found and corrected many mistakes that way (especially relating to transcription of Quaker dates: which month is the 4th month?) >I also do not believe that we should try and place any further limits on >what someone publishes on a Website. If there are corrections or additions >that you can provide, stating your reference sources . . . great. If the >Web page owner incorporates it, all the better. However, attempting to "do >something about it" would tend to do more harm than good. Remember, the >intent of most sites is not only to present a thoroughly documented body of >work, but also to stimulate thought and conversation (debate :) regarding >hypothesis (speculations based on factual circumstance). I agree with this too. The web is a wonderful communications medium. Free speech and expression of opinion never had a better partner. >I agree that speculation, with the appearance of fact is not good. Since >The Homesite was referenced in one of the posts directly, I took a look, and >although I believe that the material there was clearly premised as to what >was documented as fact and what was presented as speculation, I have removed >the access to the data from the GeneWeb page >(http://www.web-ster.com/miked.family.htm). When I get some time, I will >clean up the database and clearly mark any questionable or unacceptably >documented material. I applaud you for this. While the degree of speculation in some lines may be clear to you, it is sometimes not clear to others who may copy it. Software ought to have a clear deliniation between "proven" and "speculative" connections. Unfortunately, it typically doesn't. Either you enter a name as the father (or spouse or whatever) or you don't. Then the automatic report generators take over and there is no way to assure the caveats are known or printed or included in HTML output. In my own Family Tree Maker file, I have text describing "possible" relationships in notes fields but in order to make the speculative relationship clear I have to enter the individuals as part fo the database. For that reason I won't give my file to others. They may never look in the notes field. Doug
The mailing list is a test only, no attachment allowed list. This is by the design of the organization (Rootsweb) that provides this service to us. If you want to distribute a file, either paste it into a mail message (if it is short), or email the list and mail directly to interested parties. Hope this helps. Mike Dunton <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~ The Dunton Family Homesite http://www.web-ster.com/miked list manager for dutton-l@rootsweb.com & dunton-l@rootsweb.com <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: aredutton@juno.com [mailto:aredutton@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:59 AM To: Rlilley@aol.com Cc: Dutton-L-request@rootsweb.com Subject: TWO QUESTIONS I attempted to send an E-mail to Dutton-L@rootsweb.com with a GEDCOM attached for IOWA. Did I mail that right? There have been no responses, but they could be working on the file. R. Lilley said he had found a Melvin Dutton that was a relative. Since I have 24 Melvin Duttons on my collection, I can't be sure which one. For some reason, I assumed it was the one in Ohio. Happy New Year.
Hello, I am researching the Duttons from Hooksett, NH to Cadyville, NY. I am new to genealogy and to the internet. Please excuse me if I am not accurate on format. I'm learning... I have a Stephen Dutton b. 1/27/1896, Cadyville, NY, married Nellie Vaughan (b.5/10/1903, m.3/12/1920-21). His father was Roger Harvey Dutton b. 5/4/1867. His father was Roger A. Dutton, Hooksett, NH who left and settled in Cadyville, NY. Then I believe there is a Jacob Dutton, and then a Thomas Dutton (son of John Dutton) who may have come over from Wales. It seems there is alot of Duttons from MA and I have not seen anything from NH yet. If there is anyone out there who may have information regarding these Duttons please respond to seibler@pcfl.net . I am getting more information from family this week. Thank you!=) Maureen
Can any one please help me with this ancestor. ANN DUTTON married BENJAMIN CULVER had dau. SARAH who married RICHARD WHITE before 1776 in Hartford Co., MD. (First date and place I have for this line and I'm not sure of either.) Any help greatly appreciated. Bill in Phoenix Bill7032@aol.com
Hello Larry - Welcome to the DUTTON List. I believe you should be able to get a great deal of help and information here. For starters, your 3G grandfather, Rollin, is my third cousin 4 times removed (3C4R). At the bottom of this message you will find a Family History Report, starting with Rollin's parents, of the data that I have for that branch. Any corrections or additions that you may have would be greatly appreciated. If you need further informaation, feel free to ask. Dick Dutton Researching my family tree! Trunk: DUTTON Major branches: ALLEN, BARTLETT, CUTLER, DOGGETT, DUNTEN, DUNTON, JENSON, LAKE, METCALF, PARTRIDGE, REYNOLDS, RICHARDS, SAWYER, SMITH, TRACY, TURNER, WEDGWOOD. Minor branches: ADAMS, ALDEN, BALL, BLACK, BLANCHARD, BREWSTER, BRIMHALL, CARY, COLBURN, HATCH, HOPKINS, HYDE, KIDDER, PERKINS, WARNER, WILLIAMS. Smaller Limbs: ALGER, ANDERSON, CLARK, DAVIS, FRENCH, FULLER, HALL, HARRIS, JOHNSON, KNAPP, McMILLAN, MERRICK, MILLER, MOORE, NELSON PARKER, TUTTLE - And many more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Beldin wrote: > I am new to geneaology and have recently begun researching my mother's > family. > > I am looking for information concerning my great, great, great > grandfather, Rollin Dutton and his family. The following is all that I > know about him. > > Rollin Dutton, b. 11/29/1784, Farmington, CT; d. 4/22/1829, Farmington, > OH; > Married (5/8/1808) to Nancy Barnes, b. 6/8/1789, Deerfield, MA; d. ??, > OH. > > Children: > Lewis Webster Dutton, b. 3/8/1809, CT; d. 5/1/1829, OH. > Lucretia Dutton, b. 5/17/1811, CT; d. 4/21/1829, OH. > Electra Dutton, b. 3/13/1813, CT; d. 3/17/1829, OH. > Samuel Newton Dutton, b. 2/12/1817, OH; d. 12/23/1898, OH. > Rodney Barnes Dutton, b. 3/25/1819, OH; d. 4/4/1886, OH. > Julia Dutton, b. 8/28/1821, OH; d. ??. > Julius Dutton, b. 8/28/1821, OH; d. 7/28/1822, OH. > Mary Alvina Dutton, b. 7/5/1828, OH; d, 7/31/1853, OH. > > Rollin's son, Samuel, was my great, great grandfather. > > I would appreciate any and all information that you are willing and able > to share. While I have located Dutton information on the internet, > there has not been anything on Rollin except for one response that > supplied what is shown above. Also, I just stumbled onto the Dutton > mailing list. I never realized there were so many Duttons. > > Thank you very much for your help. > > Larry Beldin 1 Joseph DUTTON Birth: 16 Oct 1760, Southington, CT Death: 6 Feb 1836 Father: Joseph DUTTON (1720-1788) Mother: Elizabeth JUDD (1726-1796) Spouse: Hannah WEBSTER Birth: 20 May 1762 Death: 10 May 1790, at age 28 Marr: 13 Dec 1781, Farmington, CT Children: Electa (1782-) Rollin (1784-1829) Other spouses Mary WINCHELL 1.1 Electa DUTTON Birth: 29 Nov 1782, Farmington, CT Had five children. Spouse: Eleaser ROOT Birth: abt 1782 Marr: 21 Oct 1806, Farmington, CT 1.2 Rollin DUTTON Birth: 29 Nov 1784, Farmington, CT Death: 22 Apr 1829, Farmington, OH Spouse: Nancy BARNES Birth: 8 Jun 1789, Deerfield, MA Death: Farmington, OH Marr: 8 May 1808 Children: Lewis Webster (1809-1829) Lucretia (1811-1829) Elect(r?)a (1813-1829) Samuel Newton (1817-) Rodney Barnes (1819-1886) Julius (1821-1822) Julia (1821-) Mary Alvina (1828-1853) 1.2.1 Lewis Webster DUTTON Birth: 8 Mar 1809, CT Death: 1 May 1829, OH 1.2.2 Lucretia DUTTON Birth: 17 May 1811, CT Death: 21 Apr 1829, OH 1.2.3 Elect(r?)a DUTTON Birth: 13 Mar 1813, CT Death: 17 Mar 1829, OH 1.2.4 Samuel Newton DUTTON Birth: 12 Feb 1817, Bristol, OH Moved to Farmington,Ohio 1837 and Huntsburg,Ohio in1840 Spouse: Lucretia STRONG Birth: 24 Dec 1810, Southampton, MA Death: 24 Mar 1880, Montville, OH Marr: 18 Sep 1837, Farmington, OH Children: Emily (1838-1840) Myron Lester (1840-) Lewis Marcelon (1842-) Zebina Evelyn (1845-) 1.2.4.1 Emily DUTTON Birth: 21 Jun 1838, Farmington, OH Death: 27 Jun 1840, Huntsburg, OH 1.2.4.2 Myron Lester DUTTON Birth: 17 Aug 1840, Huntsburg, Oh Moved from Perry,Ohio to Clevland in 1890, later was in -eneva,Ohio. Spouse: Cynthia Jane CHILDS Birth: 11 Oct 1842 Death: 22 Nov 1870 Marr: 1 Jan 1863, Rome, OH Children: Son (1863-1863) Dora Abell (1865-) Walter C. (1867-) Minnie (1870-) 1.2.4.2.1 Son DUTTON Birth: 21 Dec 1863, Ohio Death: 21 Dec 1863 1.2.4.2.2 Dora Abell DUTTON Birth: 14 Feb 1865, OH 1.2.4.2.3 Walter C. DUTTON Birth: 22 Oct 1867, OH 1.2.4.2.4 Minnie DUTTON Birth: 15 Feb 1870, Oh Spouse: Samuel Walter KUSTER Birth: abt 1870, Pamesville, OH 1.2.4.3 Lewis Marcelon DUTTON Birth: 7 Apr 1842, Huntsburg, OH Spouse: Dotha A. AUSTIN Birth: abt 1842 Marr: 31 Dec 1867, Montville, OH Children: Charles N. (1869-) 1.2.4.3.1 Charles N. DUTTON Birth: 31 May 1869 1.2.4.4 Zebina Evelyn DUTTON Birth: 17 Sep 1845, Thompson, OH Spouse: Ruby ROGERS Birth: abt 1845 Marr: 17 Jan 1870, Montville, OH 1.2.5 Rodney Barnes DUTTON Birth: 25 Mar 1819, Bristol, OH Death: 4 Apr 1886 Spouse: Sarah G. (CHASE) JACKSON Birth: 27 Nov 1826 Marr: 9 Apr 1854 Children: Mary E. (1855-1876) Dell M. (1859-) Walter R. (1862-) Akar V. (1864-) 1.2.5.1 Mary E. DUTTON Birth: 6 Feb 1855, Thompson, OH Death: 29 Feb 1876 Spouse: Christopher C. CORLETT Birth: abt 1852 Marr: 23 Jan 1872 1.2.5.2 Dell M. DUTTON Birth: 11 Apr 1859, Footville, OH Spouse: George E. RAY Birth: abt 1859 Marr: 3 Nov 1886 1.2.5.3 Walter R. DUTTON Birth: 7 Oct 1862, Footville, OH 1.2.5.4 Akar V. DUTTON Birth: 7 Jun 1864, Footville, OH 1.2.6 Julius DUTTON Birth: 28 Aug 1821, Bristol, OH Death: 28 Jul 1822 1.2.7 Julia DUTTON Birth: 28 Aug 1821, Bristol, OH Spouse: Spencer Birth: abt 1821 1.2.8 Mary Alvina DUTTON Birth: 5 Jul 1828, Bristol, OH Death: 31 Jul 1853 Please report any corrections ar additions to: Richard A. Dutton 325 Beal Parkway Fort Walton Beach, FL 32548-3956 Phone: 850-862-3327 FAX: 850-864-1444 E-mail: rad@emcst.com
I am new to geneaology and have recently begun researching my mother's family. I am looking for information concerning my great, great, great grandfather, Rollin Dutton and his family. The following is all that I know about him. Rollin Dutton, b. 11/29/1784, Farmington, CT; d. 4/22/1829, Farmington, OH; Married (5/8/1808) to Nancy Barnes, b. 6/8/1789, Deerfield, MA; d. ??, OH. Children: Lewis Webster Dutton, b. 3/8/1809, CT; d. 5/1/1829, OH. Lucretia Dutton, b. 5/17/1811, CT; d. 4/21/1829, OH. Electra Dutton, b. 3/13/1813, CT; d. 3/17/1829, OH. Samuel Newton Dutton, b. 2/12/1817, OH; d. 12/23/1898, OH. Rodney Barnes Dutton, b. 3/25/1819, OH; d. 4/4/1886, OH. Julia Dutton, b. 8/28/1821, OH; d. ??. Julius Dutton, b. 8/28/1821, OH; d. 7/28/1822, OH. Mary Alvina Dutton, b. 7/5/1828, OH; d, 7/31/1853, OH. Rollin's son, Samuel, was my great, great grandfather. I would appreciate any and all information that you are willing and able to share. While I have located Dutton information on the internet, there has not been anything on Rollin except for one response that supplied what is shown above. Also, I just stumbled onto the Dutton mailing list. I never realized there were so many Duttons. Thank you very much for your help. Larry Beldin
At 12:08 PM 01/07/1999 EST, you wrote: >Hello, > I hope this helps a little.... > >Randy Lilley >------------- Randy: You are a mean man. I thought I had this family pretty well stabilized, and you had to go and shake them up! Oh, well. I have quoted, with the usual ">", your first generation family journal. I shall intersperse my comments, indented and without the beginning ">". Where I have no query, which, for the vast majority of the statements you made, is the case, it is because I had the same information as you have offered. Please note my confusion on some items, lending credibility to my plea that I am not being irritating (at least, not on purpose), but am merely trying to gather and confirm information! <grin> >1. Thomas Dutton b. 28-Aug-1713, Billerica,Mass, (son of Thomas Dutton and >Hannah Burge) m. (1) 10-May-1737, in Billerica,Mass, Mary Hill, b. >10-Dec-1717, Billerica,Mass, (daughter of Samuel Hill and Sarah Page) d. >--Dec-1752, Lunenburg,Mass,3 m. (2) 9-Sep-1756, Sarah (Fitch) Hill, b. Randy: what is your source for Mary's death Dec 1752? I have it as "ca. 1754" as I didn't see it (missed it?) in VR Lunenburg. Also, VR Lunenburg pgs. 227 and 248, both intention and marriage, respectively, call Thomas' 2nd wife "Sarah Fitch". Whence cometh "Sarah (Fitch) Hill"? >8-May-1731, Boston,Mass,2 (daughter of Joseph Fitch and Margaret Clark). I didn't have her birth details. >Thomas died --Dec-1782,3 Resided: Lunenburg,Mass, Rockingham,Vt. Moved from I didn't have Thomas' death date, either, even though he is a direct ancestor. Any idea WHERE he died? >Westford to Lunenburg 1743/4 then Fitchburg. Moved to Rockingham,Vt in 1766. Technically, I suppose, one could quibble about Lunenburg/Fitchburg. I don't think he ever "removed"; instead, when Fitchburg was set apart from Lunenburg in 1764, he "found himself" living in Fitchburg. >Thomas and Sarah were received into the church in Rockingham 1778. He was the I have Sarah being accepted by the Rockingham church 4 May 1777, with the church delaying Thomas' acceptance on that date, pending his giving a satisfactory response to the charge he was neglecting public worship. It appears he was let in later that same year. Recs 1st Ch Rockingham. >Tomas Dutton who was the proprietor of Cavendish. He sold his full right or >share to Salmon Dutton 28 Oct.,1788. How did I miss THIS tidbit? Shame on me! > Children: > i Mary Dutton b. 14-Dec-1737, Billerica,Mass,2 m. 8-May-1755,3 Henry >Hogkin's, b. abt 1737. > 2. ii Silas Dutton b. 23-Nov-1739. Here is the first half of a puzzle. I have this Silas as "probably died young" but can't put my fingers on my source (if I ever had one <grin>). See "Trinity" below. > iii Timothy Dutton b. abt 1740, Lunenburg,Mass. I doubt that this Timothy fits here, if at all. We agree that "a" Silas, at least, was born 23 Nov 1739, and that Sarah was born 18 Mar 1741. This leaves less than 16 months into which to cram two pregancies. > iv Sarah Dutton b. 18-Mar-1741, Westford,Mass.2 > v Hannah Dutton b. 28-Jan-1744, Lunenburg,Mass.2 She may be married to >J Frost #544. I had her birth as 28 Jan 1745/46, but on checking my source--oops. It says 1744/45. I've fixed my records! > vi Sybil Dutton b. 9-Dec-1747, Lunenburg,Mass,2 m. Elias Olcott, b. abt >1747. Sybil died 22-Aug-1802.3 Elias Olcott was born 28 Feb 1744/45 in Bolton, CT. I have Sybil's death as 27 Aug 1823, but no idea where that date came from, at the moment. I am very interested in Sybil and Elias, as they are ancestors of mine. > 3. vii Thomas Dutton b. 18-Mar-1749. I have the date as "18 Mar 1749/50", a trivial difference. > viii Elizabeth Dutton b. 24-Dec-1752, Lunenburg,Mass,2 m. 1773,3 John VR Lunenburg pg. 283, in consecutive entries, repeats Elizabeth's birth, once on 18 Dec 1752 and once on 24 Dec. How did you choose between them? Additional source?? >Pulsipher, b. 7-Mar-1744, Pomfret,Windham Co,Ct, Resided: Rockingham,Vt. >Elizabeth died 2-Dec-1838, Caldwell,MO.3 > ix Trinity Dutton b. abt 1754.5 The second half of the "Silas" puzzle. I have no "Trinity" in my records, and find the name suspicious itself (but hardly out of the realm of possibility). Instead, I have a 2nd Silas at this point, born about 1755. But if the Silas Dutton who married Sarah Whitney 3 Mar 1763 belongs to this family, then he surely does not fit between Elizabeth and Joseph F. (I think 8 yrs old is a bit young.) All my evidence is circumstantial. Can you help? > x Joseph Fitch Dutton b. 3-Jun-1757, Fitchburg,Mass,2 m. 25-Jun-1782, As previously mentioned, Fitchburg did not exist until 1764. He probably was born, however, at a location that afterward was in Fitchburg. The same is true of his next two siblings. >in Barnard,Vt, Priscilla Stevans, b. abt 1757. Joseph Resided: Barnard. > 4. xi Susanna Dutton b. 7-Mar-1759. > 5. xii John Dutton b. 9-Jul-1761. > xiii James Dutton b. abt 1763, Fitchburg,Mass. I postulate that he was born, not in Lunenburg alias Fitchburg, but in Rockingham, Vt. He was not baptized until 20 Nov 1773, in Rockingham, very soon after the church there was founded. I reason that, had he been born in Lunenburg, the baptism would have been there, and much sooner. Or maybe I just missed the birth record in VR Lunenburg? [snip--I'm still digesting your 2nd generation data <grin>] Darrell formerly of the Dutton District in Springfield, Vermont, a moderate hike from the Rockingham town line currently in exile in Addison, Illinois darrellm@sprynet.com Formerly of Springfield, Vermont Currently in Exile in Addison, Illinois darrellm@sprynet.com
Hello, I hope this helps a little.... Randy Lilley ------------- 1. Thomas Dutton b. 28-Aug-1713, Billerica,Mass, (son of Thomas Dutton and Hannah Burge) m. (1) 10-May-1737, in Billerica,Mass, Mary Hill, b. 10-Dec-1717, Billerica,Mass, (daughter of Samuel Hill and Sarah Page) d. --Dec-1752, Lunenburg,Mass,3 m. (2) 9-Sep-1756, Sarah (Fitch) Hill, b. 8-May-1731, Boston,Mass,2 (daughter of Joseph Fitch and Margaret Clark). Thomas died --Dec-1782,3 Resided: Lunenburg,Mass, Rockingham,Vt. Moved from Westford to Lunenburg 1743/4 then Fitchburg. Moved to Rockingham,Vt in 1766. Thomas and Sarah were received into the church in Rockingham 1778. He was the Tomas Dutton who was the proprietor of Cavendish. He sold his full right or share to Salmon Dutton 28 Oct.,1788. Children: i Mary Dutton b. 14-Dec-1737, Billerica,Mass,2 m. 8-May-1755,3 Henry Hogkin's, b. abt 1737. 2. ii Silas Dutton b. 23-Nov-1739. iii Timothy Dutton b. abt 1740, Lunenburg,Mass. iv Sarah Dutton b. 18-Mar-1741, Westford,Mass.2 v Hannah Dutton b. 28-Jan-1744, Lunenburg,Mass.2 She may be married to J Frost #544. vi Sybil Dutton b. 9-Dec-1747, Lunenburg,Mass,2 m. Elias Olcott, b. abt 1747. Sybil died 22-Aug-1802.3 3. vii Thomas Dutton b. 18-Mar-1749. viii Elizabeth Dutton b. 24-Dec-1752, Lunenburg,Mass,2 m. 1773,3 John Pulsipher, b. 7-Mar-1744, Pomfret,Windham Co,Ct, Resided: Rockingham,Vt. Elizabeth died 2-Dec-1838, Caldwell,MO.3 ix Trinity Dutton b. abt 1754.5 x Joseph Fitch Dutton b. 3-Jun-1757, Fitchburg,Mass,2 m. 25-Jun-1782, in Barnard,Vt, Priscilla Stevans, b. abt 1757. Joseph Resided: Barnard. 4. xi Susanna Dutton b. 7-Mar-1759. 5. xii John Dutton b. 9-Jul-1761. xiii James Dutton b. abt 1763, Fitchburg,Mass. Second Generation 2. Silas Dutton b. 23-Nov-1739, Westford,Mass,2 m. 3-Mar-1763, in Lunenburg,Mass,3 Sarah Whitney, b. 27-Feb-1739,2 (daughter of Zachariah Whitney and Sarah Boynton) d. 1810, Plainfield,NH.2 Silas died 26-May-1826, Hartland,Vt.2 He removed first to Rindge in 1764, and after 1771 to Meriden,NH and later to Hartland,Vt, where he died at the home of his son Benjamin. Children: 6. i Silas Dutton b. --May-1764. ii Polly Dutton b. 31-Aug-1766, Rindge,NH,3 m. Elias Sawyer, b. abt 1766.2 7. iii Oliver Dutton b. 26-Apr-1767. 8. iv Zachariah Dutton (twin). b. 10-Nov-1771. v Jane Dutton (twin). b. 10-Nov-1771, Rindge,NH,3 m. Prosper Marcy, b. 1773, Woodstock,Vt, (son of Samuel Marcy and Esther Peak) d. 15-May-1855. 9. vi Amasa Dutton b. --___-1773. vii Sarah Dutton b. abt 1776, m. Judge Root, b. abt 1776. 10. viii Benjamin Dutton b. 14-Oct-1778. 3. Thomas Dutton b. 18-Mar-1749, Lunenburg,Mass,2 m. Bethiah (Fuller) Parker, b. --___-1752, Conn,6 d. 25-Mar-1837, Grafton,Vt,6 buried: Burgess Cem.-Grafton. Thomas died 31-Mar-1813, Grafton,Vt, buried: Burgess Cem.-Grafton, Resided: Rockingham,Vt. Bethiah: Received into the church at Rockingham Sept 27,1779. Children: i Thomas Dutton b. abt 1772, d. 7-Jul-1777, Rockingham,Vt. ii Bethiah Dutton b. --___-1773,6 d. 11-Jul-1777, Rockingham,Vt,6 buried: Rockingham Cem. iii Ebenezer Dutton b. 1775, d. 23-Apr-1786, Rockingham,Vt,6 buried: Rockingham Cem. 11. iv Perley Dutton b. 13-Oct-1778. v Bethiah Dutton b. 5-Sep-1779, Rockingham,Vt,3 m. 24-Sep-1798, in Grafton,Vt,6 Ruel Blodgett, b. abt 1779. Bethiah Resided: Grafton. vi Rosalinda Dutton b. 18-Jul-1784, Rockingham,Vt.3 unmarried. vii Roxana Dutton b. 3-Jun-1784, Rockingham,Vt,6 died of: Heart disease, d. 8-Jan-1869, Grafton,Vt,6 buried: Burgess Cem.-Grafton. viii Ebenezer Fuller Dutton b. 9-Jul-1786, Rockingham,Vt.3 12. ix Ira Dutton b. 21-Jun-1788. History of Jaffrey,NH Dutton gene. Vol II pg 258. New England Historical Society,Boston New England Historical Society,Boston Families of Cavendish:the early settlers of the Black River Valley-by Welch. NEHG Register, Vol 41-55, 1887-1901. New England Historical Society,Boston Mormon Family History Center Vital Statistics and Records-Middlesex,Vt NEHG Register, Vol 21-40, 1867-1886 Vital Records, Middlesex,Vt & New England Historical Society,Boston NEHG Register, Vol 56-70, 1902-1916. NEHG Register, Vol 91-110, 1937-1956
At 07:39 PM 01/06/1999 -0800, Sharon wrote: [snip] > . . . I have a >question for you. I tracked a Thomas Dutton b. 28 Aug 1713 in Billerica >MA; m. in Billerica to Mary Hill 10 May 1737. They moved to Lunenburg MA >where 9Sept 1756 he married Sarah Fitch. They moved to Rocking ham VT >between 1761-1773. That's when son James was born there. I have found them >in the records of the First Church of Rockingham in 1777. Now here's the >question: Who are the Thomas and Bethia Dutton living in Rockingham at >that same time? They are also mentioned in the church records. At first I >figured it was just a coincidence but today at the LDS center I found a >record of a Thomas Dutton married to a Bethia--- in 1775 in MA. I'm >assuming he must be a relative. If you can help I would much appreciate >it. Thanks-Sharon in MA Sharon: The Rockingham, Vermont branch of the family is in my ancestry, although the Thomas who married Bethia is not. My interpretation of the two Thomases that you mentioned is that one, whom I call "Thomas Dutton IV", was the father of the other, whom I call "Thomas Dutton V". Neither the "IV" nor the "V" are found in my sources, but they help keep me from going crazier. Here's a summary: ------------------ Thomas Dutton "IV", b. Billerica MA 28 Aug 1713 Thomas D. IV m(1) Mary Hill, Billerica 10 May 1737 ch. Mary D. b. Billerica 14 Dec 1737 (oops!?) ch. Silas D. b. Westford MA 23 Nov 1739; prob. d. young ch. Sarah D. b. Westford 18 Mar 1741/2 ch. Hannah D. b. Lunenburg, MA 28 Jan 1745/6 ch. Sybil D. b. Lunenburg 9 Dec 1747 (She is my ancestor, m. Elias Olcott.) ch. Thomas D. "V" b. Lunenburg 18 Mar 1749/50 ch. Elizabeth D. b. Lunenburg 18 or 24 Dec 1752 ch. Silas D. b. Lunenburg est. 1754 Mary (Hill) D. d. Lunenburg ca. 1754 Thomas D. IV m(2) Sarah Fitch, Lunenburg 9 Sep 1756 ch. Joseph Fitch D. b. Lunenburg 3 Jun 1757 ch. Susannah D. b. Lunenburg 7 Mar 1759 ch. John D. b. Lunenburg 9 Jul 1761 Thomas D. IV remv. to Rockingham, VT ca. 1765 (It was after Fitchburg separated from Lunenburg, 1764, and possibly as early as 1766.) ch. James D. b. Rockingham(?) ca. 1766 Thomas D. IV res. Rockingham 1771 James D. bap. Rockingham 20 Nov 1773 soon after church formed Sarah (Fitch) D. accepted into Rockingham church 4 May 1777 "Thomas Duttons Child" d. Rockingham 7 Jul 1777 Thomas D. (IV? V?) took oath accepting VT Constitution and pledging fidelity to the United States of America 23 Jun 1777 Thomas D. IV accepted into Rockingham church late 1777 James D. d. Rockingham 2 Dec 1777 Mary D. d. Rockingham 6 Dec 1777 (Three of Thomas D. IV's sons, Thomas V, Silas, and Joseph, had Rev. War service with the Rockingham militia) ---------------- Thomas Dutton V b. Lunenburg 18 Mar 1749/50 Thomas D. V m. Bethia ----- bef. 1778 (Based on the middle name of their child Ebenezer, her maiden name MAY have been Fuller. An Ebenezer Fuller junr d. Rockingham 22 Sep 1777; Bethia's father?, brother?, ???.) Bethia D. accepted into Rockingham church 27 Sep 1778 ch. Perley D. b. ca. Sep 1778(?), bap. Rockingham 13 Oct 1778 ch. Bethia D. b. ca. Aug 1779(?), bap. Rockingham 5 Sep 1779 ch. Rosalinda D. b. ca. Jul 1784(?), bap. Rockingham 18 Jul 1784 ch. Ebenezer Fuller D. b. ca. Jul 1786(?), bap. Rockingham 9 Jul 1786 ----- specific source for the two Thomas' relationship ----- Printed VR Lunenburg, pg. 283, "Thomas Dutton the son of Thomas Dutton and of Mary his wife, was born at Lunenburg March the 18th 1749/50." ----- other sources including for closely connected persons not listed above ----- Bartley, Vermont Families in 1791, Vol. 1 Benes, NEHGR 1978, Rockingham Carvings Cutter, Genealogical & Personal Memoirs Relating to the Families of Boston & Eastern Massachusetts, section on Dutton Hazen, History of Billerica, MA Mass. 1948, Historical Data relating to Counties, Cities and Towns in Mass. Holbrook, compiler, Vermont 1771 Census (Cumberland Co, NY, census of 1771, plus) Recs 1st Church of Rockingham, VT VR Billerica, MA VR Lunenburg, MA VR Rockingham, VT VR Westford, MA ------------------- I am copying this message to the DUTTON-L list. Comments and corrections welcome, of course. Connections with more cousins ALWAYS encouraged. Sharon, you mention that you have specifics ("at the LDS center I found a record") on the marriage of Thomas and Bethia. Could you give me the details? Were any primary sources mentioned?? Thanks! Darrell A. Martin formerly of the Dutton District in Springfield, Vermont (less than a half mile from the Rockingham line) currently in exile in Addison, Illinois darrellm@sprynet.com
Carole, I have just checked my copy of the "Cheshire Record Office Guide" and the only reference to WARBURTON of Arley in the Index is for Chambers & Co., Northwich under clients papers: Warburton of Arley - estate papers 19th - 20th centuries. So it would appear that they aren't at the Cheshire Record Office. Regards, Nick > >(still looking for Odard's father!!! I wonder whatever happened to the >Warburton papers?) > Nicolas Blackhurst, in Chester (The Roman Fortress of Deva), England nicolas.blackhurst@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/nicolas.blackhurst/homepage.htm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------435C6A3878D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is interesting!!! Carole --------------435C6A3878D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from bl-30.rootsweb.com (bl-30.rootsweb.com [207.113.245.30]) by mail.midohio.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08781 for <malisiak@midohio.net>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-30.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04321; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:12:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:12:16 -0800 (PST) Old-To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:16:05 -0500 From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <taf2@po.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <36938C45.782B@po.cwru.edu> Organization: Case Western Reserve University Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@rootsweb.com References: <36a08002.137205661@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, <369187A8.90B06523@mail2.lcia.com>, <369260a9.0@139.134.5.33> Reply-To: taf2@po.cwru.edu Subject: Re: Spencer Questions - Despencer Resent-Message-ID: <"dUyVxB.A.SCB.Zt4k2"@bl-30.rootsweb.com> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/17478 X-Loop: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@rootsweb.com rhianne wrote: > > While the topic is being discussed,would anyone be able to comment on a > remark made in a volume on heraldry, alleging that Diana, Princes of Wales', > family, in fact, used arms that were of the Despencers and that they were > not in fact entitled to do so. This is not entirely accurate, but pretty close. The Spencer family was descended from a 14th century sheep farmer. When they were granted arms, they were given those of the Despencers, but differenced (changed) by the addition of three scallop shells. At the time the arms were granted, the use of differenced arms should be restricted to those descended in the male line from the earlier family, which the Spencers were not. However, it was also at a period in which sloppy genealogy was rampant, and led to many similar instances of sloppy heraldry. The situation as heraldry was first being systematized was entirely different. The Despencer arms themselves are differenced from those of their feudal masters (from the service of whom they also derived their surname), the Earls of Chester. (Many of the Chester gentry based their arms on those of their Earls.) These arms, in their turn, belonged to the Mandeville/Vere heraldry group, brought into Chester by marriage. (The following is from memory, but you get the idea of the process. For precise details, the group rec.heraldry would be better.) Mandeville/Vere group- variations of quarterly (subdivided into 4 quadrants) gold or silver and red Chester - quarterly, silver and red, over the red, fretty (a pattern of diagonal woven lines) gold Despencer - quarterly silver and red w/gold fret, over the whole thing a thick black diagonal line Spencer - quarterly silver and red w/gold fret, black diagonal, with three silver scallops on it For those interested, I did a quick search and came up with the following site, which shows the Spencer arms. The others can then be imagined by removing differences, step by step. http://www.baronage.co.uk/diana/di-arms1.html taf --------------435C6A3878D0--
There has been a good deal of discussion of this topic presently and in the past. The Internet has been a wonderful tool for connecting family lines and speeding up a process that once took years. I don't believe that you should use it to replace scientific or genealogical proofing methods. Everything that you read on the Internet must be treated as a secondary source at best (e.g. scanned documents). The Internet does not take the place of you going to a research library, a records facility, etc. and using your own discernment. I also do not believe that we should try and place any further limits on what someone publishes on a Website. If there are corrections or additions that you can provide, stating your reference sources . . . great. If the Web page owner incorporates it, all the better. However, attempting to "do something about it" would tend to do more harm than good. Remember, the intent of most sites is not only to present a thoroughly documented body of work, but also to stimulate thought and conversation (debate :) regarding hypothesis (speculations based on factual circumstance). I agree that speculation, with the appearance of fact is not good. Since The Homesite was referenced in one of the posts directly, I took a look, and although I believe that the material there was clearly premised as to what was documented as fact and what was presented as speculation, I have removed the access to the data from the GeneWeb page (http://www.web-ster.com/miked.family.htm). When I get some time, I will clean up the database and clearly mark any questionable or unacceptably documented material. If you have any data that you would like to present for inclusion, please contact me offline for file-type specifications. Regards, Mike Dunton <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~ The Dunton Homesite http://www.web-ster.com/miked list manager for dutton-l@rootsweb.com & dunton-l@rootsweb.com <><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~<><~~~~
>I have heard some of these cries for primary evidence and I know it is >important. >One of my cousins, also named Michael, supposedly has a family Bible that >originated in England with our line >written in it. I only know what my father has said about it- "it has >some Dutton's names from England >in their own writing". We are in the process of getting copies of this >information. That's great Michael! If it has the info and connects the generations it will be an important document. It may also provide leads regarding dates that could be verified by church registers, etc. Let's hope it does! Until there is some real data such as may be in your Bible to support the link between Thomas Dutton and John Dutton and then something to link John back to a specific location or set of dates or family connection in England, we are dealing with what is at best a guess. Doug
Darrell, I am in complete agreement with you and can elaborate on one point: >Thomas' father John is supposed by some to have had a wife, Mary >Neeld/Nield, but not only was this Mary most likely married to the John >Dutton who settled in Pennsylvania, but I recently read evidence that she >married a Neeld/Nield *after* the death of her husband John Dutton. Again, >my sources are not readily at hand, but the burden of proof is on making >the connection. That is correct. Mary (Darlington) Dutton, widow of John Dutton of Aston, Pennsylvania, and origianlly from Overton, Cheshire, England, later married John Neeld (the most usual spelling - other variants being Neelde and Nield) whose land immediately adjoined the Duttons in Aston. This is all well reported in Gilbert Cope's Genealogy of the Dutton Family of Pennsylvania, originally printed in 1871. In addition, I have in my personal possession a number of the original parchment deeds between Mary Dutton Neeld and her children by John Dutton. I have posted some of the full text of these deeds here in DUTTON-L. >I have Thomas' birth circa 1619, based on Edward F. Johnson, compiler, >"Woburn Records of Births, Deaths, and Marriages 1640-1873," (Woburn: >Andrews, Cutler, & Co., 1890), Part III Marriages, pg. 284 in a footnote >under surname Tottingham, "In the suit of Capt. Johnson vs. Ensign John >Carter, Dec. 1658 ... witnesses were ... Thomas Dutton [aged] about 39 ..." >citing "County Court Records, Vol. I., page 161. Dec. 1658." I have his >death at 22 January 1686/1687, after Cutter. > >I would give miscellaneous body parts to be shown primary evidence of the >ancestry of Thomas Dutton of Reading, Woburn, and Billerica, Massachusetts >in the late 17th Century. I have been looking for a quarter century, and >have UNlearned more than I have proved. Hopefully this mournful trend can >be reversed. This is a quote of the first two paragraphs from page 107 of Cope's book where he briefly discusses the "Duttons of Connecticut" ---- "Some of the Dutton family emigrated to New England more than fifty years prior to the settlement of Pennsylvania, and their descendants are now scattered all over the United States. "Savage, in his 'Genealogical Dictionary of New England,' states that John Dutton arrived in 1630, but he (Savage) knew not where he seated himself. Thomas Dutton of Woburn, perhaps a son of John, was born about 1621 and lived for some time in Reading, where, by his wife Susan, it is thought he had....." ---- Cope was pretty meticulous in his genealogical work. Note that he does not state a definite relationship between Thomas Dutton and John Dutton; he simply says "perhaps a son of John". I am aware of no proof of this father-son relationship. Are you? Can anyone here offer any primary evidence of this? Not only is there no proof of John Dutton's specific ancestry in England, there is no proof that Thomas Dutton of Woburn, from whom the New England Duttons descend, was the son of John in any case! The only citations for this supposed ancestry I have ever seen have been in web sites. I have emailed owners of such web-based material asking for their sources. The responses I have received have all cited other web-based genealogies. I have not been offered one primary source. As best I have been able to ascertain the "original" web-based genealogy that others subsequently copied has been taken off the web. Its owner has not responded to my request for some evidence of the link. I think what we have is a lot of very well-meaning people taking unproven assertions of a possible link and turning that into a definite line of descent. It doesn't help matters that commonly used genealogy software doesn't allow for a distinction in charts between relationships that are "guessed at," "probable," and "definite". Thus, what the owner of a datafile may understand about the link is not transferred to someone who simply copies the file or its data, assuming that it must all be equally proven and real. I don't know that I would go as far as you and "give miscellaneous body parts" :-) for some real proof, but it sure would be great to find some. Until then, I am more than a skeptic. It seems to me we are dealing with unfortunately propagated disinformation. Doug
Hello cousins, Some folks have sought answers to questions about the Dutton genealogy on the medieval LIST. Most--no--all of the responses have been negative. If you want to read what is happening on that list, I have given you the address below where you can join. Evidently, Ray Montgomery is on both lists (as I am) and he has forwarded some of the messages to you and I have forwarded one. I receive about 100 posts a day from the Gen-Med LIST. Tristan Tornado is an entertaining poster with his toy wooden catapult. Ignore everything from D. Spencer Hines, aka, DSH as he is an extremely rude person without genealogical information. Leo van de Pas is very helpful to most people--a very knowledgeable, kind, and helpful person. I want to check out some of these responses, but it is difficult for me to get to the Ohio Historical Center Library which closes at 5:00 and I work till almost that time (geez, I wish I could retire!!). I have faith in our genealogy and I think these other folks are wrong, but ALAS, no time to seek the proof. Maybe some of you (?Doug, Mike?) already have the proof at hand!!! GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@rootsweb.com Also, you can go to dejanews.com and read old postings there. Carole (still looking for Odard's father!!! I wonder whatever happened to the Warburton papers?)