Some of you are suscribers on GEN-MEDIEVAL@MAIL.EWORLD.COM I do not think I am ready to sign on with them. Would any of you consider asking them about FITZ? The LDS ANF (Ancestral File) has dozens if not hundreds of names with FITZ as an apparent prefix. For example, FITZ PIERS, FITZHUGH, FITZJOHN, FITZWILLIAM, FITZRALPH, FITZROY, FITZTHOMAS, FITZWARIN or WALTER, and FITZODARD. What is the origin of FITZ, and what is its use or meaning? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

At 01:48 PM 01/31/1999 -0600, you (Dick Dutton) wrote in the vein of the ongoing discussion: >-----------------------------Snip------------------------------------------ > I also agree, in principal, with those who say that every fact should be > documented with original source data, but we all know that this Utopia > can never be achieved. Many of the necessary documents, if they ever > existed, have long since ceased to exist. In their absence, I feel we > have no practical choice other than to proceed with the "Preponderance > of Evidence" and let the Nea Sayers produce the documentation to prove > us wrong. Hi, cousins and others: Like Dick, I do not believe that proof positive is to be held up as the only standard. After all, the major problem in biologically-oriented genealogy is the "who's the daddy?" question. Until DNA testing (please, I'm not interested in a discussion) there was no way to REALLY verify the mother's claim, "my husband is." All genealogy is based on some trust, on the notion that certain types of evidence are good ENOUGH. However, that too can be taken too far. I really don't think it is up to the nay sayers to prove a line wrong. I think it is up to those who claim a line to offer credible evidence of its accuracy, first; then and only then does the offering of contrary evidence make any sense. To take a ridiculuous example (reductio ad absurdam), if 100 years from now someone finds their ancestor as the baby in a National Enquirer "Space Aliens Got Me Pregnant" story, is it up to anyone to prove that wrong? Isn't it in print, after all?? Of course the burden of proof is on the claim! More proof can be demanded when someone claims that a woman bore a child at 55 years old, and I would need a lot more than that to convince me about the space alien father. Most standards of genealogical proof insistent that contemporary evidence is better; direct evidence is better; and, analysis from normally accurate persons is better. I don't really know about the Odard/Hodard issue, in detail. I do know about the propensity of the nobility to embellish their pedigrees. So here are the questions I would want to have answered before I would accept any parentage for Odard: 1. Is the evidence offered contemporary and primary? 2. Is the writer normally found to be accurate when other statements are challenged? 3. Are there any reasonable possible alternatives? 4. Is there specific evidence to the contrary that even approaches the credibility of the evidence offered in support? Notice I do *not* say that equals the credibility, just approaches it. If the answers to the above questions can be told, then I would be ready to give my opinion on the ancestry of Odard. I don't think the "only one old book" argument is enough to reject a line outright, *if* that one old book is almost always proved right where it can be tested. Still, I don't think any single source is to be completely trusted, either. But you have my permission (as if you needed it) to claim any fact you like, as long as you tell me how you support it--OR that you can't. If you don't support it well, don't expect me to accept it. Darrell Darrell A. Martin formerly of the Dutton District, Springfield, Vermont currently in exile in Addison, Illinois darrellm@sprynet.com

Does any my have my 4th great grandmother?? Ann Dutton married Benjamin Culver dau. Sarah Culver married Richard White BEF 1776 in Harford Co. MD Not a whole lot to go on, Is it? Any little bit would help. Bill in Phoenix Bill7230@aol.com

Hi Milton, I have not heard from you in a very long time. Have you joined the list? Could you please send along your data from Francis to yourself. I'd really like to hear from you. Your cousin, Carole ____________________ milton wagy wrote: > > >From malisiak@midohio.net Sun Oct 18 15:29:01 1998 > >To: milton wagy <wagyml@hotmail.com> > >Subject: Re: Dutton Family > >Hi Milt, > >I looked at my tree and I found Francis R. Dutton, b. 20 Feb 1801, the > >son of > > > >David Dutton b. abt 1740 m. 01 Oct 1778 Hannah Rogers at Old Swedes > >Church, Wilmington, Delaware. Is that who you are? My Great, Great, > >Grandfather's name is Robert, b. 2 Sep 1788--a brother of Francis! > > > >Ye-ha! A new cousin!!!! > >Carole > >_____________________________ > >milton wagy wrote: > >> Hello! Thanks for responding. Milton or Milt is find...to come to both! > >> I will certainly "hook-up" with the Dutton-L- e-mail list. I copied the > >> Dutton lines that appeared on the internet. I will have to send in the > >> information on my branches of the family, as they were not included in > >> the family genealogies that I found. The lasted Dutton was Francis R. > >> Dutton b. 1801. I am descended through his daughter Hannah Isabel > >> Dutton. > --------------- > > Carole: My Goodness! So we ARE cousins! As yes, my Great-Great-Great > Grandfather was Francis R. Dutton son of David and Hannah Dutton. Now > what..? > > Thanks! Milton

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7AFEB26B7B142CCC42FB6C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I realize that some of ya'll are deep into solving the ancient mysteries of our Dutton origins, but come on you guys, isn't there someone out there who can answer what may be a couple of mundane if not idiot questions....but needing answers nonetheless...pleeeese....enlighten me??  Sue --------------7AFEB26B7B142CCC42FB6C80 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from thunder.ipa.net (thunder.ipa.net [205.218.170.21]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA19226 for <oldolls@pop.ipa.net>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:57:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from bl-14.rootsweb.com (bl-14.rootsweb.com [204.212.38.30]) by thunder.ipa.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16685 for <oldolls@ipa.net>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:56:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05372; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B0FA41.6458C3FD@ipa.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:01:06 -0600 From: Sue Dutton Rodgers <oldolls@ipa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Old-To: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Cope's Book Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"30sk8C.A.qTB.5aPs2"@bl-14.rootsweb.com> To: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/789 X-Loop: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: DUTTON-L-request@rootsweb.com I am attempting to chart the Duttons from Cope's book into my FTM program and have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you can help me with before I really mess it up!! Now, I understand that the Quakers counted their months from March thru Feb, with (1mo) in his book meaning March, etc. Am I correct in that?  Can anyone tell me if when Cope used that terminology for a birth date or death date, etc, that he always meant the March thru Feb thing??  I know that further along in the book he begins to use the name of the month.  Also, how do you figure the years?  i.e.  if a birthdate is (11 mo.) which would be January, do you assume the year he has is correct?? Also, before I get too deep into it, does anyone have any glaring mistakes that were made in his book??? Any pointers???  Sue --------------7AFEB26B7B142CCC42FB6C80--

Hi Dick, Nick, and everyone!! I have spent nearly the entire day trying to answer your question, but I think that I may have an attention disorder because I look up something and I get sidetracked, then I get sidetracked from my sidetrack...then a couple of hours later, I remember what I was supposed to be doing. Well..... The Preponderance of Evidence for Odard's father is with Ivo of the Cotentin as I have found no evidence at all for William Count of Eu (but I am still looking, as I have not found a wife or any children for William III, Count of Eu). Now Ivo. I found in the Gen-Med archives a person named Ivo went with William to Conquer England. Wace says that viscount Nigel fought with Duke William. Dugdale's Monasticon Anglianum states that Nigel, "is said to have come to England with earl Hugh of Chester accompanied by five brothers: Hudardus, et al." Round shows that Nigel, vct. de St. Sauveur had two sons named William, three daughters, and two other sons [not named so one could be called Ivo]. So, for this very moment, the preponderence of evidence, limited as it is, is with Ivo from the Cotentin. Right now this looks like a lifetime project, especially with my sidetracks!! I have written to a stneel@aol.com who has been studying the St. Sauveur's for many years and who knows much more than I do. PH Lawson seems pretty accurate and I wish we had his sources instead of having to reinvent the wheel. I won't have any freetime for two weeks. Geez! See ya all, Carole _______________ Dick Dutton wrote: > Nicolas Blackhurst wrote: > > Carole, > > I don't see the problem with a few Normans having Anglo-Saxon first names. > > -----------------------------Snip------------------------------------------ > Hi Nick, > > Good for you! I agree with your position 100% but do not have the detailed knowledge to express it nearly as well. Like you, I have subscribed, and unsubscribed to the GenMed List - for the same reasons. (In defense of that List, however, there are a couple of very knowledgeable and helpful individuals to be found there.) > > I also agree, in principal, with those who say that every fact should be documented with original source data, but we all know that this Utopia can never be achieved. Many of the necessary documents, if they ever existed, have long since ceased to exist. In their absence, I feel we have no practical choice other than to proceed with the "Preponderance of Evidence" and let the Nea Sayers produce the documentation to prove us wrong. > > That said, Carole - who do you (and the Preponderance of Evidence) favor for our ??G grandpappy (Odard's dad)? I am thoroughly confused. > > Dick

Nicolas Blackhurst wrote: > Carole, > > I don't see the problem with a few Normans having Anglo-Saxon first names. -----------------------------Snip------------------------------------------ Hi Nick, Good for you! I agree with your position 100% but do not have the detailed knowledge to express it nearly as well. Like you, I have subscribed, and unsubscribed to the GenMed List - for the same reasons. (In defense of that List, however, there are a couple of very knowledgeable and helpful individuals to be found there.) I also agree, in principal, with those who say that every fact should be documented with original source data, but we all know that this Utopia can never be achieved. Many of the necessary documents, if they ever existed, have long since ceased to exist. In their absence, I feel we have no practical choice other than to proceed with the "Preponderance of Evidence" and let the Nea Sayers produce the documentation to prove us wrong. That said, Carole - who do you (and the Preponderance of Evidence) favor for our ??G grandpappy (Odard's dad)? I am thoroughly confused. Dick

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_917763834_boundary Content-ID: <0_917763834@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_917763834_boundary Content-ID: <0_917763834@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: TruBess@aol.com Return-path: <TruBess@aol.com> To: BIZETTA@aol.com Subject: I went searching for an ancestor Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:31:07 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Found this tonight and believe it to be true. Bess I went searching for an ancestor. I cannot find him still. He moved around from place to place and did not leave a will. He married where a courthouse burned. He mended all his fences. He avoided any man who came to take the US census. He always kept his luggage packed, this man who had no fame. And every 20 years or so, this rascal changed his name. His parents came from Europe. They could be on some list of passengers to the USA, but somehow they got missed. And no one else anywhere is searching for this man So, I play geneasolitaire to find him if I can. I'm told he's buried in a plot, with tombstone he was blessed but the weather took engraving and some vandal took the rest, He died before the county clerks decided to keep records, No family bible has emerged in spite of all my efforts. To top it off this ancestor, who caused me many groans. Just to give me one more pain, betrothed a girl named JONES. --part0_917763834_boundary--

Carole, I don't see the problem with a few Normans having Anglo-Saxon first names. Aethelred's wife was Duke Richard of Normandy's daughter Emma, their son Edward took refuge in Normandy when Cnut stole the throne. No doubt Edward took various nobles, their ladies and children with him. He lived their for over 25 years, in that time no doubt some of the children married Normans, this would have cemented Edwards claim to Norman help to regain the throne of England. I expect that Saxon names may well have become fashionable amongst the Norman nobility and some of them may well have given some of their children Saxon names. People often think to themselves, "I like that name, so what if it is foreign, I will call my son that!" I have no proof that they did this, but your so called experts probably cannot disprove it either! Lots of things happened in the past for which there is no documantary proof existing today, perhaps Ormerod saw documents which we haven't got the benefit of. Ormerod says in Vol. One page 643 "Now followeth THE PEDIGREE OF THE DUTTONS OF DUTTON, faithfully collected from the evidences of that family, and other good records and deeds." Perhaps he saw some family records which no longer exist? A lot of families lost a great deal of property during the Civil War. He wrote this about 1665, just after the Civil War, no doubt from years of research. Cannon and shot do not respect property! Ask the experts to produce documentary proof that Odards father wasn't an Anglophile who happened to decide to give his children unusual first names. You have documantary proof that says he may well have done, they don't have documantary proof to say he didn't! Twice I have subscribed to the GenMed list and twice I have unsubscribed because I got fed up reading messages from airheads slagging each other off! GenMed seems to have a lot of people stuffed full of their own importance who cannot get an airing anywhere else. Regards, Nick >Hi Phyllis, >My search for Odard's parents is going very poorly. I have checked the >GEN-MEDIEVAL-L archives and the expert's, Todd A. Famerie and Paul C. >Reed, report this: > >Odard has no parents, the information supplied by Ormerod is patently >false, it is imaginery, it is fabulous, it is fantasy. > >So! Needless to say, I am very unhappy. I have just read taf's >messages today. I had a note from pcr in December stating that both of >Odard's fathers were fantasy. I think that the evidence cited by pcr is >weak. He throws Odard's two fathers out because he says that the names >Odard, Edard, Geffrey, Wlofaith, Horsynne, and Nigel are Anglo-Saxon >names and that the information was derived from Dugdale's Monasticon >Anglianun vi. 315 and Ormerod i, 689-90 and that early monastic >pedigrees are notorious for untrustowrthiness. Nicolas Blackhurst, in Chester (The Roman Fortress of Deva), England nicolas.blackhurst@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/nicolas.blackhurst/homepage.htm

Sorry gang! I apologize in advance for this breach of netequette but in light of tomorrow's occasion I couldn't resist - Dick Bob received a free ticket from his company. Unfortunately, when Bob arrived at the stadium he realized the seat was in the last row in the corner of the stadium. He was closer to the Goodyear Blimp than the field! About halfway through the first quarter, Bob noticed an empty seat 10 rows off the field right on the 50 yard line. He decided to take a chance and made his way through the stadium and around the security guards to the empty seat. As he sat down, he asked the gentleman sitting next to the empty seat. Is there anyone sitting here? The man said "No." Very excited to be in such a great seat for the game, Bob said to the man next to him, "This is incredible! Who in their right mind would have a seat like this at the Super bowl and not use it?!" The man replied, "Well, actually, the seat belongs to me. I was supposed to come with my wife, but she passed away. This is the first Super bowl we haven't been to together since we got married in 1967." "That's really sad," said Bob, "but still, couldn't you find someone to take the seat? A relative or a close friend?" "No," the man replied, "they're all at the funeral."

Hi All, James Tait, 'the great Cheshire historian,' pcr--has written a history which debunks the father of Odard. I cannot read this book, which I very much want to (frustrating), but maybe someone from England can read it if they want to. It is probably in a library located there. I have no access to it. What pcr is saying is that all the other Cheshire historians are wrong (which is pretty amazing to me!!). Carole

Aw shucks, I'm all embarrassed now. Thanks for the compliment. For those of you who haven't visited lately, I added more information from 'the chart' to the 'Dutton Origins' page. There are now two lineages for Odard, neither of them proved. > -----Original Message----- > From: aredutton@juno.com [mailto:aredutton@juno.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:03 AM > To: curtrowe@ix.netcom.com > Cc: DUTTON-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: ROWE'S DUTTON HOME PAGE > > > The Dutton home page by Curt Rowe is more than an impressive piece of > work. > It is very nicely set up with photographs and graphics. > > By by clicking two or three names, you can get an extensive Dutton > download. > I saved it on three text files, which lost all the color and graphics. > > There are also references on these three files. > > Either I have to do more work or just remain jealous. > > Ed Dutton > Casper, Wyoming > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >

File No. log9611c http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/G/GEN-MEDIEVAL+1996+550811169063+F ============================================================ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: Medieval Genealogy Discussion List <GEN-MEDIEVAL@MAIL.EWORLD.COM> Sender: Medieval Genealogy Discussion List <GEN-MEDIEVAL@MAIL.EWORLD.COM> From: John Yohalem <enchante@ESCAPE.COM> Subject: Re: Visigothic connection to Clodoveo, K. of France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have the parents of Leovigildo, King of the West Goths as Amalarico and > Clotilde, daughter of Clodoveo, first Christian King of France. > > This Clodoveo seems to ring a bell as a connection to a more familiar name, > Clovis, which has appeared from time to time in this newsgroup. Is this > Clodoceo also Clovis or related to him in some manner? > > One of the problems I run into from time to time is the language variation of > the same name to the extent that it is not readily identifiable. > > Alonso in the Castillan for Alphonso in the Spanish and Carlos V for Charles > the 5th works out well but get into some Latin naming and it quickly becomes > disorienting. Any ideas? > > thanks, > > John > jdecelis@msn.com Clovis = Chlodovech = Clodoveo = Louis, by the way. Clovis was a version of his name that the great Frank never heard. Louis is how we pronounce it nowadays -- also Ludwig, of course. Alfonso is a shortening of Hildefons, Ildefonso, an early Spanish patron saint. Carlos and Felipe were names unknown in Spain until the Burgundians ascended the throne in the 16th century and took Fernando back to Germany as Ferdinand at the same time. Other amusing cognates: Jacob = Iago = Jacques = James = Jaime. John = Ivan = Jean = Jehan = Giovanni = Joao = Joan (Catalan) = Janos = Ivo = Yves = Yvon = Yontek = Jo-Han (Chinese) = Vanni = Hans = Gianni George = Jorge = Yuri = Georg = Giorgio = Voytech Isabella = Elizabeth = Isabeau Joan = Jean (Scots) = Jane = Giovanna = Ivanka = Johana = Juana =Yvonne Agnes = Inez Haroun = Aaron Esther = Ishtar = Astarte = Ashtaroth Helen = Elyena = Ilka Sophia = Sonia Yolanda = Iolanthe = Violante Margaret = Gretel = Peggy = Gruoch = Margotta Eleanor = Leonora Stephanie = Etienette Alexander = Iskander = Sandro = Sandor Hercules = Herakles = Irakle You get all sorts of names mixed up if you read genealogies in different languages and do not check back to see who you've got. Generally, the older a name is, the likelier it is to have a version in another language. Thus, for instance, in English we have our own names for Roma, Milano, Moskva, Wien, Varshava, Kobnhavn, Beijing and Praha because we've been dealing with them for so long. We follow the custom of the country for Kuala Lumpur and Djakarta and Buenos Aires because we haven't been trading with them for quite so many centuries. Jean Coeur de Lapin

Hi Phyllis, My search for Odard's parents is going very poorly. I have checked the GEN-MEDIEVAL-L archives and the expert's, Todd A. Famerie and Paul C. Reed, report this: Odard has no parents, the information supplied by Ormerod is patently false, it is imaginery, it is fabulous, it is fantasy. So! Needless to say, I am very unhappy. I have just read taf's messages today. I had a note from pcr in December stating that both of Odard's fathers were fantasy. I am sending this info to the list, as well. And I have not changed my web page as yet. BUT.....what to do? I think that I am going to write a blurb about the "experts" and their reason for throwing our family out the window. I think that I will send the list members the same info and let everyone decide for themselves who they want to believe. I think that the evidence cited by pcr is weak. He throws Odard's two fathers out because he says that the names Odard, Edard, Geffrey, Wlofaith, Horsynne, and Nigel are Anglo-Saxon names and that the information was derived from Dugdale's Monasticon Anglianun vi. 315 and Ormerod i, 689-90 and that early monastic pedigrees are notorious for untrustowrthiness. Well, I disagree. Elisabeth Van Houts in her book, "The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of Wm of Jumiéges et al." reports on page 236-7, "He [King Henry] next subdued the stronghold of Brionne, by force rather than by voluntary surrender, and he punished by blinding the man who ever since the imprisonment of Count Waleran had been its castellan." "Orderic mentions three names: Geoffrey of Tourville, Odard of Le Pin, and Luke of La Barre, who was a jester." as the possible castellan. Thus, I believe, at this date, that Odard IS NOT an Anglo-Saxon name. I would say that Geffrey is not A-S either. Nigel is another name for Neil. So, three of the 6 names are not A-S and it just remains to find out the Norman names of the other three guys. I will be forwarding a list of names and their alternates to the list when I re-find it in the archives! Names were very fluid at that date, so, I am having a hard time believing that they would dismiss data based on names!!! I have to check out the "Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum 1066-154" published at Oxford, the Clarendon Press 1948, H.W.C. Davis ed. Vol 1 pg5 item 20 where Odard witnessed a document in 1067 at Vernon (Normandy) and also on page 20, but Mike Ward did not know what was on page 20. In this document, King William and William of Vernon were also witnesses and several others. On page 20, Mike tells me that Odard witnessed another document. This is a big puzzle to me and you would think that the "experts" would be helpful rather than just throwing everything out. Odard has to have a father--he didn't hatch! Frustrated in Ohio, Carole _____________________ Phyllis Ryerse wrote: > > Hey Carole......has this list dried up and vanished?? > Absolutely NOTHING! > What's happening?? > > I'm back to normal from running the store in the mall at Christmastime. > Very profitable----if you can hang in there! > I'm slowly getting back at the Duttons...trying to re-run the highlights and > hit the ground running again. I've got some questions for you -- and the > group which I'll send along in a day or two. > Let me hear how your search for Odard's parents has been going! > Last I heard you were comparing notes with some Frenchmen and trying to > translate Latin!! omy! > > Catch me up on all the news! > Phyllis

I am attempting to chart the Duttons from Cope's book into my FTM program and have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you can help me with before I really mess it up!! Now, I understand that the Quakers counted their months from March thru Feb, with (1mo) in his book meaning March, etc. Am I correct in that?� Can anyone tell me if when Cope used that terminology for a birth date or death date, etc, that he always meant the March thru Feb thing??� I know that further along in the book he begins to use the name of the month.� Also, how do you figure the years?� i.e.� if a birthdate is (11 mo.) which would be January, do you assume the year he has is correct?? Also, before I get too deep into it, does anyone have any glaring mistakes that were made in his book??? Any pointers???� Sue

The Dutton home page by Curt Rowe is more than an impressive piece of work. It is very nicely set up with photographs and graphics. By by clicking two or three names, you can get an extensive Dutton download. I saved it on three text files, which lost all the color and graphics. There are also references on these three files. Either I have to do more work or just remain jealous. Ed Dutton Casper, Wyoming ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Hi all, Some time ago, I had wondered how much genetic info from our ancestors were still with us today. I had guessed that "not much" was left of them in our genes. Now, it would seem that we have an answer from taf. See below John Carmi Parsons wrote: > > On 27 Jan 1999, DavidBotts wrote: > > > Here is an issue we Bottsfolk have that ties right into this whole issue of DNA > > testing. > > [snip] > > > 3) The Botts I am most concerned about making the list is elderly, and has > > outlived her brother and nephew, leaving no male representative in her line. > > > > 4) If we drew samples of DNA from the living, would have any shot of > > proving/disproving a proposed lineage between our female Botts and her > > suspected 1550-1620 male ancestor? > > It would be difficult to say the least, because women do not inherit the > paternal Y chromosome which is the necessary link in establishing father to > son descent (or son to father ascent). This is simply not a reasonable possibility. We are talking about something in the neighborhood of 10 generations, so the chance of any particular autosomal (non-X, -Y, or mtDNA) marker being inherited by both descendants is less than 1/1000. Since this is less than the distribution of most markers in the population, it is impossible to distiguish which shared markers derive from common descent, vs. which ones are simply coincidence. Since you need to perform analysis on several shared markers to reach statistically relevant results, you would have to look at well over 5000 markers to find 5 or so that are relevant. Needle - haystack. (That being said, if you want to pony up several hundred thousand dollars, I could give it a go.) > If she had surviving brothers or > fraternal nephews, their Y chromosomes could be compared with those of other > male Botts whom you know to be related; but since her brother and nephew are > deceased, that route is forever blocked (unless she has locks of their hair > --or her father's--that could supply the needed DNA). Even hair is problematic. The Y-chromosome screening methods I have seen used so far (Southern blot based RFLP analysis) require much more DNA than you would get from a hair. Most hair analysis has looked at mtDNA, for which there are as many as 1000 copies copies per cell, compared to one Y-chromosome. Likewise, most have used sequencing of PCR products to do the typing, and PCR can use sample sizes several thousand fold lower than RFLP studies. PCR of old tissue samples, such as hair, works best to determine the maternal lineage of a particular stiff when you know the type of the prospective mother. If you get lucky, you may be able to do a couple of RFLP tests to either disprove or support (but I doubt you could do enough tests to prove) the parents of an individual, but only if you have equally well preserved samples for both potential parents. The statistics on the Y chromosome are enough more stringent that I don't think you could get valid results. taf

I am new to the Dutton mailing list and while looking through the archives I found a correspondence between Dick Dutton and Larry Beldin. Going through the Family History Report at the end I found that I fit in this branch of the Duttons. I believe Dick and I would be seventh cousins twice removed, if I calculated correctly :) and Larry and I are second cousins once removed. Our common relative is Myron L. Dutton. I also already had Larry's parents in my Family History. For Dick - I do have some corrections and additions for your Family History which I will send seperately to you. I am also looking for further information on the Duttons. Myron was as far back as I have gotten on the Dutton line. I also have a couple of hits on your other branches (Partridge, Clark, and Miller). I'll send those to you seperately. For Larry - I can help you out going back on the Child(s) line. Write to me seperately and we can compare notes. Your email address was not listed in the correspondance. Thank You for the help you've already given me and please feel free to contact me for any further information. Mike Horace

Hi Mike, I accidently deleted the memo you sent us about preparing for the 2K computer problems. Could you resend it to me directly or to the list? Please! Carole

Hi, I am new to this list and totally enthralled! Carole Malisiak wrote: > <snip> > > This Sir Thomas Dutton must be the twentieth Dutton of Dutton on > Lawson's Chart which notes that he died in 1614. This is the information that I have and have downloaded from a GEDCOM file from the Family History Center, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. > Information from Fred > Dutton indicates that he died on 12/28/1614, aged 46. I concur but not to the exact date. Thank you for the incite. I have that he was married to Thomasin ANDERTON (additionally wed, or whatever, to John SINGLETON and Sir Knight Anthony SAINT JOHN) abt 1593, Aderton, Lancashire, England. Their issue were: John DUTTON b. 1595 of Dutton, Cheshire, England; who as you specify died at fourteen on his wedding day (whilst riding a pony) to Elizabeth EGERTON (d of Sir Thomas Egerton) m. 9 Feb 1608/09 in Cheshire, England and Eleanor (or Elinour) DUTTON b. 1596 of Dutton, Cheshire, England d. 12 Mar 1665 Dutton Hall, Dutton, Chesire, England. m. 16 Sep 1609 (at the 'tender' age of 13) Dutton, Chesire, England to Lord Gerard Gilbert GERARD Bromley (unknown issue) who d. 1622. She later m. 31 Oct 1636, Dutton, Cheshire, England; Robert Nedham (NEEDHAM), 2nd Viscount Kilmorrey d. 12 Sep 1653, Dutton Hall, Dutton, Cheshire, England. The Kilmorreys had 5 sons and 7 daughters. Of note are (to me): Baroness Byron Eleanor NEEDHAM b. 1627, Dutton, Cheshire, England who was a mistress of Charles II STUART, King of England (unknown issue) m. 1644 Baron Byron Of Rochdale, John BYRON. d.26 Jan 1663/64 at Chester, Cheshire, England. Alice NEEDHAM b. abt 1629, of Shropshire, England d. 1729 Pasquotank Co., NC, USA m. William BRYAN (my progenitor). Charles NEEDHAM m. Bridget DRURY Katherine NEEDHAM d. 11 Mar 1665 Terry