Hi Jim and James, The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by Joep de Koening, “From Van der Donck to Visscher” in Mercator’s World 5, no. 4 (July/August 2000). There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokes’ Iconography of Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph beginning “From the foregoing facts,” He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. Of course that was in 1915. The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New Amsterdam and New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a similar picture as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes thinks all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost original. Also, note plate 1: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is “1626-8?” Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com From: jarm@nycnuts.net Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM To: DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known depiction of New York City (c1650). Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited doctor, and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which only contemporary copies exist. Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany a journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible match. Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link to a sample of my handwriting comparison: [1]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id =20 [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ Thanks in advance for your input! Jim Maxwell References 1. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/

Last year my local Family History Center discarded the book DUTCH AND ENGLISH ON THE HUDSON, by Maud Wilder Goodwin, 1919. I do not know how accurate her information is, on page 76, is a copy of the picture from the second link in Howard's message. It describes the image as New Amsterdam, about 1630,"The earliest engraved view of New York. In A DESCRIPTION OF NEW NETHERLANDS, VIRGINIA AND NEW ENGLEND, by Joost Hartgens published in Amsterdam, 1651. In the New York Public Library. On page 30 there is another "Drawing from an old print." The Fort at New Amsterdam. This book is available at abebooks.com, many copies for under $5. Interestingly several companies have reprinted the book in recent years. Marleen Van Horne -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

I am by no means an expert on any of this. I don't remember now the picture on Shorto's cover, so can't compare that. The two water colors seem to me to be possible copies. The idea that they may both be of a lost original seems feasible. The one Jim is looking at looks to me to have been done more quickly, and is less polished than the one Howard references. It is from the same angle, while the etching is from the other side of the island, and shows many fewer buildings, but does show the complete fort, not visible to my eye in the two water colors. I don't know what that says about dating. What an interesting discussion and topic, even if it's not possible to come to a definitive answer. Doris On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Hi Jim and James, > > The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover > of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it > briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by > Joep de Koening, > “From Van der Donck to Visscher” in Mercator’s World 5, no. 4 (July/August > 2000). > > There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokes’ > Iconography of > Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > > Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. > (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) > He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph > beginning “From the foregoing facts,” > He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. > Of course that was in 1915. > > The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New > Amsterdam and > New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a > similar picture > as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. > > I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes > thinks > all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost > original. > > > Also, note plate 1: > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is “1626-8?” > > Regards, > Howard > > > hswain@ix.netcom.com > From: jarm@nycnuts.net > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM > To: DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is > this the artist??? > > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited > doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany > a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible > match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > [1] > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id > =20 > > > > [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 > 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I seem to remember from Shorto's book, that there were many copies made of the basic drawing, that is different versions by different artists copying from the original. Like these were "sales tools" almost. I know that I have seen at least three or four which were these copies/re-drawings, and I imagine there are probably many many more in collections throughout Europe. Evan Rofheart <http://www.facebook.com/DivineEnergyHealing> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Doris Waggoner <waggonerdoris@gmail.com>wrote: > I am by no means an expert on any of this. I don't remember now the > picture on Shorto's cover, so can't compare that. The two water colors > seem to me to be possible copies. The idea that they may both be of a lost > original seems feasible. The one Jim is looking at looks to me to have > been done more quickly, and is less polished than the one Howard > references. It is from the same angle, while the etching is from the other > side of the island, and shows many fewer buildings, but does show the > complete fort, not visible to my eye in the two water colors. I don't know > what that says about dating. > > What an interesting discussion and topic, even if it's not possible to come > to a definitive answer. > > Doris > > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> > wrote: > > > Hi Jim and James, > > > > The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover > > of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions > it > > briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by > > Joep de Koening, > > “From Van der Donck to Visscher” in Mercator’s World 5, no. 4 > (July/August > > 2000). > > > > There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokes’ > > Iconography of > > Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: > > > > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > > > > Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. > > (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) > > He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph > > beginning “From the foregoing facts,” > > He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. > > Of course that was in 1915. > > > > The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New > > Amsterdam and > > New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a > > similar picture > > as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. > > > > I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that > Stokes > > thinks > > all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost > > original. > > > > > > Also, note plate 1: > > > > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > > Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is “1626-8?” > > > > Regards, > > Howard > > > > > > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > From: jarm@nycnuts.net > > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM > > To: DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is > > this the artist??? > > > > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known > > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited > > doctor, > > and held important government positions under both William Kieft and > Peter > > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as > > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall > Street > > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the > > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of > which > > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the > National > > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het > > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my > own > > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, > > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There > > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that > accompany > > a > > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National > Library > > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm > > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible > > match. > > > > > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a > link > > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > > > > > [1] > > > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id > > =20 > > > > > > > > [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > > > > > Jim Maxwell > > > > References > > > > 1. > > > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 > > 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >