Hi Howard, Thanks for the good points and the lead---I haven't yet read the Article by D.H. Truscott, and will definitely check it out. Sorry, as I kind of misspoke... A more accurate telling of what Stoke says is that the maps from the Jessie de Forest Journal, which have been attributed to LaMontagne, resemble the Manatvs Map. SEE Stokes, vol II, page 118 [1]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000287.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= Beside the maps from the deforest Journal, which also include water color paintings, there are maps in the collection of the WIC also attributed to LaMontagne (these might be the same or similar drafts of the Journal Maps). Here's a long list of Sources (with links to digital versions) that some of you might find useful. [2]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/lamontagne/sources/index.html I'm hoping to write a piece on LaMontagne and you list members are proving to be great help! Thanks Again! Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Manatus maps, etc. (was: Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist???) From: "Howard Swain" <[3]hswain@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, June 18, 2013 2:47 pm To: <[4]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Hi Jim and all, I didnât see that Stokes mentioned La Montagne re. the 1639 Manatus maps, but I could have missed it. His discussion is here: [5]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000452.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= [This is actually page 181.] As he says, what we have today is two copies made by someone unknown. You can see them in the pages preceding the above link. Youâve probably see the article by Dorothy Hayden Truscott, âWho Drew the Manatus Map?â in NYGBR vol 124, no. 4 (Oct 1993), pp. 217-220. She discusses La Montagne. Back to Stokes. See: [6]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000430.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= and the following pages. He discusses that the surviving Manatus maps, the âCastello planâ, and what he calls the Prototype View (the scene like the one that strated this discussion) are all copies. And probably made in Holland. Regards, Howard [7]hswain@ix.netcom.com From: [8]jarm@nycnuts.net Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:00 AM To: [9]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? Thanks Howard! Thant was great input. I believe, if I remember correctly, Stoke mentions LaMontagne as being the possible drafter of the ORIGINAL Manatvs Map, of which only supposed copies exist. I have read some of Joep de Koening's comments on this image, but I don't think I saw that article. I think I might try to contact him after I do a little more work. I have tried some to obtain samples of Augustijn Herrman's handwriting, but have only, as yet, seeing mention of his signature, which by itself might help. I will take another look at the Visscher Map. There was a book released in 2010 which contained the maps of the WIC and that work had several maps attributed to LaMontagne, but I can't find a library that carries it, including the NYPL, or the Family History Library. Thanks Howard---your input has served me well! Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: "Howard Swain" <[1][10]hswain@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 10:37 am To: <[2][11]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Hi Jim and James, The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by Joep de Koening, âFrom Van der Donck to Visscherâ in Mercatorâs World 5, no. 4 (July/August 2000). There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokesâ Iconography of Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: [3][12]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_58 0072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph beginning âFrom the foregoing facts,â He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. Of course that was in 1915. The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New Amsterdam and New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a similar picture as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes thinks all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost original. Also, note plate 1: [4][13]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_58 0072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is â1626-8?â Regards, Howard [5][14]hswain@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [15]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000287.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 2. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/lamontagne/sources/index.html 3. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 4. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 5. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000452.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 6. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_002/pages/ldpd_5800727_002_00000430.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 7. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 8. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 9. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 10. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 11. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 12. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 13. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 14. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 15. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com