Hi Liz et al As I suspected I cannot seem to include the copy document in a mail so I will include a transcript shortly and attempt here a description of what the original contains. It is from the Gemeente Archief, Amsterdam and is a page of 3 [ I think ] intentions as you say. At the top of the page is the date which I have never before tried to read and is certainly October 1651 [ sorry, not 1652 as I said yesterday ] and what seems to be De xi [ i.e. the 11th ] . I think the 11th was a Wednesday. All 3 entries have margin notes by the side but I have never tried to read the other two. I will. I suspect this is a page, if not book, of intentions so that on the evidence of this single page they have managed a 100% check by noting the subsequent marriages [ subject to my discovering the other two say - never showed up !?, father last seen pursuing errant groom with shotgun ] . Funny how this wee survey radically differs from your experience. I will check the other records I have. When I said they had a printed form it is of course partially printed and I think there are 2 areas [1] the preamble which always says ' Compareer de als voorn - it then swings into the details of the particular event. There is then a further printed area below the details amounting to 6 lines which I confess I have neve read / translated. I will try and mail again. Then below that the signatures of groom and bride, no witnesses [ it apparently being intention ] . Then the margin note. This particular marriage thus seem to have had this document dated 11 October 1651 and may be the ondertrouw [ as far as I remember this ' marriage ' was in the index of trouwen ]. I cannot recall ever having seen an index of ondertrouwen but maybe they were there, it is many years since I got this. So, Wed 11th October 1651 was followed by 4 Sundays, 15th, 22nd, 29th and 5th November before the stated marriage on Sunday 11 November. I think others have alluded to the ' grant ' being ' open ended ' [ perhaps within reason ] so that this couple married on the 5th Sunday after the ' grant '. They did not marry in the City but in a small village on the river to the south, Ouderkerk - aan - de - Amstel, where the grooms father was keeping a low profile which is almost certainly why it took place in Ouderkerk and possibly also why it was ' delayed ' a week, if indeed it was. [ Sorry to go into what is probably un - necessary detail but it gives the full story ] . This is obviosuly an example from the ole country but may hold comparison to events in NN? This brings to mind the fact that I am not aware of having seen any such copy for a NN marriage. In fact I think I have only ever seen ' index entries ' of NN and subsequent colonial marriages? No doubt some on the list may perhaps have seen some? very interested to know please. If you have copies can you please say if they are visible anywhere or perhaps private me a copy? I have been very lucky with the marriages of my direct line insofaras I have the 1636 record from Holland of the immigrant pre travel, the next marriage c1676 [ probably either Flatbush or NA ] after immigration is the only one missing for the whole line for which I then have 4 18th century and 3 19th century. Lucky old me. Maybe there should be a list for those working on Europe or maybe there are the individual places - Holland etc lists. Maybe a sepaarte list for those from NN who are researching Europe? I guess the last question I raised is tough and maybe I would be stuck in trying to answer my own question? I do share your ' primary goal ' and will check out what has gone before and hopefully write again in due course. Very interesting. BTW - an very good archivist at Amsteldijk told me that the best way to find folks and pick up useful information was to chekc out the death registers because they give addresses! Here is the transcription : [ nb - I ' sent ' this earlier but it would not even seem to include a paste from word ] best Laurence nb - thus out of sync with last brief mail. -----Original Message----- From: E Johnson <iris.gates@gmail.com> To: dutch-colonies <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:04 Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Marriage "registration" vs. "banns" (vs. marriage) Laurence and all, > I was, though, of course very happy to find the marriage record of an ncestor in 1652 Holland firstly mistakenly thought to be marriage, but hen quickly realised to in fact be banns and upon full reading to find a argin note to the effect ‘ these persons were married in …by… ‘.They had rinted forms. Here again, was this the record of Banns, or was this a record of marriage ntention? The intention (in Dutch, the ondertrouw) is not the banns. Banns ere read on 3 consecutive Sundays in the church. Banns could be read only fter the marriage intention was filed. In Amsterdam, they had three different marriage registrars, probably all at he city hall. One was the regular office, where a marrying couple, both embers of the Dutch Reformed church, would record their marriage ntention. After this, the banns would be read in the church. The second office, the Pui, recorded marriage intentions in their own book. n this situation, usually one or both parties were of a different eligion, such as Lutheran. After recording the marriage intentions, a otice (banns) would be posted in a certain place outside of the city hall, here anyone in town could read them and raise an objection if necessary. I now of one case in which a woman did object --the marriage was not llowed to go forward. It turned out that the person who objected had istaken the man wishing to be married with another already-married man who ad the same name. After investigation, the legitimately-engaged couple ere (of course) allowed to marry. The Extra-ordinaris intekenregister was the third office in which couples iled marriage intentions. Usually this office was consulted when one or oth of the marrying persons lived out of town, or whose parents did. A arent or guardian's consent was needed, which would be sent for. Sometimes certificate from the minister of the church they last attended was equired. This took extra time, since letters neeeded tobe exchanged etween different places, or a courier needed to be sent. Banns would be osted in the town(s) of residence after the consents or records of revious church membership (and eligibility to marry) were obtained. But the marriage intention, and not the banns, are what we find record of n Amsterdam. Sometimes the actual date of the marriage was written in a arginal note next to the record of marriage intention, but in my xperience (hundreds of marriage records since they became available a year go), not often. The actual marriage date was usually not the registrar's oncern. This issue below: > I did write some years back about the wish of folks to get back beyond NN o discover their European ancestry which resulted in one reply and led me o believe that virtually no one on the list was interested, at least not nough to write on the matter. Perhaps if that is their goal they would be n another list!? Is there anyone out there hoping to research further eyond the shores of North America other than via DNA? Is that not the reater desire of the vast majority – to discover one’s line back to ethuselah? or at least the place / places of origin of one’s ancestors? erhaps not. Yes. I am researching beyond the shores of North America, and I know everal others here who are also working on their European forebears --and ot by using DNA. I am not a member of any list researching persons in urope. > Regardless of that, is anyone inclined to write on what they hope to chieve, what do they dream about in terms of their own personal enealogical ‘ nirvana ‘? I an not inclined to write about what I _hope_ to achieve. Writing about ishes and dreams would be a time-consuming and unnecessary middle step. nstead, I write about what I actually have achieved. Most people who know e, and I've been around here over 10 years now, know that one of my rimary goals is to connect descendants of the New Netherlanders with their re-immigration families. I have the best success with persons of Amsterdam not necessarily born there), because the records in Amsterdam are so uperior. They are well-preserved and the online presentation of the tadsarchief Amsterdam makes it possible to obtain information from as arly as 1564. Records of the Dutch church in Cologne are also very good rom 1571 onward, and I have good success with these also. Recently, here n the list I wrote about the Dutch forebears of the Van Nuys family (some lso Johnson or Okeson), which I was able to trace back another one or two enerations. I wrote two articles about this group, which are on my ebsite, and gave links to the pages where these articles can be found. ther articles concerning North Americans and their Dutch of Flemish orebears are also on this website. For an example of discovering the uropean ancestry of one extended family who lived in Cologne for a while, series of about a dozen articles on the Varlet family, co-authored by Cor nabel and me several years ago, is online on its own dedicated website. Liz J ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message