I'm going in circles with my early du Trieux [Truax] part of my lines. It seems clear that my maternal line goes back to Phillippe Sr through three of his children. Two of these are Maria, daughter by his first wife Jacqueline Noiret, and Rebecca, daughter by his second wife, Susanna du Chesne. The third line is my problem. Some researchers say Isaac who married Maria Williamse Brouwer is the son of Phillippe Sr by his second wife Susanna. Others say Isaac is the son of Phillippe Jr by an unknown wife. The only documentation I have seen cited at all is Dorothy Koenig's post to Truax-L 8 Sep 1998 that states: "Lisa, Here is the footnote on page 25 of volume 1, number 1, of my "New Netherland Connections". The original sentence is "[Philippe's] second son [Philippe] produced two sons. Then the footnote: Subsequent research has indicated that Isaac and Jacob were sons of Philippe, Sr., rather than Philippe, Jr. At the time of the deaths of both Philippes [killed by Indians in 1652], Susanna Du Trieux [Philippe, Sr.'s second wife -- Susanna Du Chesne] claimed wages due to her son, Phillipe, Jr. There is no record of a widow's claim for him of any kind. Philippe, Sr. would have been in his middle to late 50s and Susanna in her early to middle 40s at the time of Isaac and Jacob's births. There is no record for a marriage of Philippe, Jr. although mariages for all the other children are well documented, with the exception of Abraham." http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/truax/1998-09/0905293408 I understand the reasoning here but it seem to me that the simple lack of a widow's claim for Phillippe Jr could be explained by his wife having died prior to his death possibly even leaving the two sons, Isaac and Jacob in the hands of their grandparents, Phillippe Sr and Susanna. Susanna's age weighs against being the mother of Isaac b ca 1642 and Jacob b ca 1645 although certainly not impossible as well as a significant gap between Susanna's other children and the two boys. Certainly both these boys are of an approximate age to be considered as sons of Phillippe Jr. Thus, is the following scenario impossible? Phillippe Jr born 1619 in his early 20's marries say in 1641 and has Isaac 1642 and Jacob 1645. His wife dies sometime between Jacob's birth and the 1652 killing of both Phillippe's. I would appreciate any comments or additional documentation on this situation. Although it is clear that my mother goes back to Phillippe Sr, it would be nice to know whether it is through Isaac as son of Susanna or Isaac as grandson of Jacqueline. Holly Timm sent both to Dutch-Colonies and Truax mail lists

Hi all, From: "Holly Timm" <htimm@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Isaac du Trieux,son of Phillippe Jr or Phillippe Sr? > > Some researchers say Isaac who married Maria > Williamse Brouwer is the son of Phillippe Sr by his second wife Susanna. > Others say Isaac is the son of Phillippe Jr by an unknown wife. snip > I understand the reasoning here but it seem to me that the simple lack of a > widow's claim for Phillippe Jr could be explained by his wife having died > prior to his death possibly even leaving the two sons, Isaac and Jacob in > the hands of their grandparents, Phillippe Sr and Susanna. Susanna's age > weighs against being the mother of Isaac b ca 1642 and Jacob b ca 1645 > although certainly not impossible as well as a significant gap between > Susanna's other children and the two boys. Certainly both these boys are of > an approximate age to be considered as sons of Phillippe Jr. Thus, is the > following scenario impossible? Phillippe Jr born 1619 in his early 20's > marries say in 1641 and has Isaac 1642 and Jacob 1645. His wife dies > sometime between Jacob's birth and the 1652 killing of both Phillippe's. The 1653 court case documenting the deaths of the two Philips is in RNA I:114-115. This was unfortunately before the establishment of the orphan chamber. I don't find any other documentation on how the orphans (whoever was their father) were to be taken care of. As to ages -- On 15 Aug 1639 Philip de Truy aged 53 years makes a deposition. On 15 Dec 1640 Philip de Truy aged about 55 years makes a depostion. [NY Hist. Mss.: Dutch, vol I, Register of the Prov Sec. pp 214-5, 312-3.] So we might conclude he was born in 1685 or 1686. Let's assume 1685. If Philip, Sr., were the father of Jacob, then Philip would be 60 when Jacob was baptised. If Susanna du Chesne were 18 when she married in 1621, then she would be 42. I wondered if I knew of anyone else in this timeframe who had children at similar ages. I thought of Thomas Fredericskszen and Marritie Adriaens. Thanks to the recent article by Pam Sears: "Thomas Frederickszen and Maritje Adriaens: Origins of the Cadmus Family...," NYGBR; vol 137, no. 3 (July 2006), pp 179-187 we know that Thomas was bp. in 1611 and Marritie in 1628. Their last child was bp. 4 Feb 1672 in NY. So, Thomas was 61 and Marritie was 44. So, having children at the ages that Philip Sr. and Susanna would be is not unheard of, even in the 17th C. As to spacing -- Unfortunately, there do not seem to be bap. records for many of the later children of Philip and Susanna. I looked at this awhile back and assuming 3 year intervals for the unknown births, it looked reasonable as to _their_ marriage dates and there was only a 5 year gap between Rachel and Isaac. But looking at it again, if we assume a more usual 2 year spacing, then there is a 9 year gap there. You might want to play with this some more and see how these various birth years play out for all these children with their marr. dates and the birth dates of _their_ children. I notice that for the bap. of Isaac and Jacob the parent is shown only as Philip du Trieux. When there was a Sr. and a Jr. but no designation is shown, which should one assume they meant? It seems to me you might make a weak case that Sr. was the default -- especially since we know he was married. You may never have a definitive answer, but I hope this gives some things to think about. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com