Thank you Howard for your assessment of the situation and thanks to Richard Hayes for providing the baptisms of Isaac and Jacob. At this point without further documentation or evidence which, as you point out, may not exist, I find it pretty much a 50/50 case and may simply have to be satisfied with an either/or as to Sr or Jr. Purely subjectively I lean towards Phillippe Jr but my notes will clearly indicate the uncertainty. Thanks again to all who took time to look at this. Holly Timm -----Original Message----- From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Howard Swain Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 1:59 PM To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Isaac du Trieux,son of Phillippe Jr or Phillippe Sr? The 1653 court case documenting the deaths of the two Philips is in RNA I:114-115. This was unfortunately before the establishment of the orphan chamber. I don't find any other documentation on how the orphans (whoever was their father) were to be taken care of. As to ages -- On 15 Aug 1639 Philip de Truy aged 53 years makes a deposition. On 15 Dec 1640 Philip de Truy aged about 55 years makes a depostion. [NY Hist. Mss.: Dutch, vol I, Register of the Prov Sec. pp 214-5, 312-3.] So we might conclude he was born in 1685 or 1686. Let's assume 1685. If Philip, Sr., were the father of Jacob, then Philip would be 60 when Jacob was baptised. If Susanna du Chesne were 18 when she married in 1621, then she would be 42. I wondered if I knew of anyone else in this timeframe who had children at similar ages. I thought of Thomas Fredericskszen and Marritie Adriaens. Thanks to the recent article by Pam Sears: "Thomas Frederickszen and Maritje Adriaens: Origins of the Cadmus Family...," NYGBR; vol 137, no. 3 (July 2006), pp 179-187 we know that Thomas was bp. in 1611 and Marritie in 1628. Their last child was bp. 4 Feb 1672 in NY. So, Thomas was 61 and Marritie was 44. So, having children at the ages that Philip Sr. and Susanna would be is not unheard of, even in the 17th C. As to spacing -- Unfortunately, there do not seem to be bap. records for many of the later children of Philip and Susanna. I looked at this awhile back and assuming 3 year intervals for the unknown births, it looked reasonable as to _their_ marriage dates and there was only a 5 year gap between Rachel and Isaac. But looking at it again, if we assume a more usual 2 year spacing, then there is a 9 year gap there. You might want to play with this some more and see how these various birth years play out for all these children with their marr. dates and the birth dates of _their_ children. I notice that for the bap. of Isaac and Jacob the parent is shown only as Philip du Trieux. When there was a Sr. and a Jr. but no designation is shown, which should one assume they meant? It seems to me you might make a weak case that Sr. was the default -- especially since we know he was married. You may never have a definitive answer, but I hope this gives some things to think about. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message