Dutch Privateers. Can anyone help me locate info on Dutch Privateers? Specifically, I am looking for one of my ancestors' ships. Jan Jansen Wanshaer was part owner in 'La Grace" a frigate from 1644 sailing from New Amsterdam. Thank you. Allan Kaufmann ----- Original Message ----- From: dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 93 To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Christening - only ships? (Elizabeth Johnson) > 2. Re: Christening - only ships? (Donna Stark) > 3. Re: Christening - only ships? (Elizabeth Johnson) > 4. Re: Baptism correct term (Roland Elliott) > 5. Re: Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch (Elizabeth Johnson) > 6. Re: Christening - only ships? (MScheffler) > 7. Re: Christening/Baptism (Genealogy) > 8. Re: Christening - only ships? (Marlou322@aol.com) > 9. Re: Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > (Jacassidy22@aol.com) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:26:32 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > Dedication is normally used in the sense of dedicating the child and > his or her life to Christ. In the usual sense, it is not a ceremony > in itself but instead a reason and purpose attached to the ceremony. > > The first usage of which I am aware if the word "Christening" was > associated with the Methodist Church. > > Barbara & George Grenier <grenier@earthlink.net> wrote: > I have heard the term, baby dedication. I always thought it was > probably > in churches that didn't baptize babies. > > Barbara > > > > At 11:28 PM 3/9/07, you wrote: > >I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > >baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > > >are christened. > >I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then > they > >are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Donna Stark" <donnaStarkKy@fewpb.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:31:17 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > In the Baptist Church we dedicate a baby at a month or more of age. > Usually > the baby is given its first New Testament with its name on it. This > is to > say we will rear the child in a Christian Home. When the child > reaches an > age to understand that Jesus is our hope for eternity, then he > accepts this, > joins the church and is baptised. Usually this happens at the age of > 9-14. > The person who joins the church comes down the aisle to the pastor, > and the > congregation says "Yes" that we will help the child in the growth of > > Christianity. > > Donna > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara & George Grenier" <grenier@earthlink.net> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:17 AM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > > > >I have heard the term, baby dedication. I always thought it was probably > > in churches that didn't baptize babies. > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > At 11:28 PM 3/9/07, you wrote: > >>I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > >>baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > >>are christened. > >>I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and > then they > >>are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:35:49 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by each > religious group and what we have read here, written by some who have > stated the case much better that I, there is a theological difference > in some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and > they cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As > the product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the > Catholic Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being > christened. My husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC > and the descendant of more members of the RDC than I can count, has > not heard of christening being used in that particular group. This > all goes back to the suggestion that we adhere to the usage by the > particular group about which we write which I believe to be an > excellent idea. > > MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism > are the same thing. Protestant churches who > baptize adults usually call the church ceremony for children > "Dedication" > when the parents and witnesses stand up in front of the church > congregation > and promise to raise children in whatever Christian church it is. > Usually > the congregation takes a vow as well to assist the parents in the process. > > Margaret Scheffler > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > > I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > > baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > are > > christened. > > I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and > then they > > are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Roland Elliott" <rolandelliott@inreach.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:45 -0800 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term > I would say you can't spell as everybody knows it is potatoes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. S. Balch" <asbalch@hal-pc.org> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:09 AM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term > > > This is sort of a "you say 'poe-TAY-toe' I say 'poe-TAH-toe'" thing. > Different denominations of the Christrian faith have their own terminology > and definitions. One just goes with whatever his/her own denomination > prefers. > > As far as I am concerned, there is no correct/wrong terminology; just > use > what is the practice of your particular church. > > Adrian > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:17:12 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > Hi Ray and others, I ran into this when I was compiling a genealogy > in which the forebearers were DRC and there was a choice in the > program I was using of christening or baptism. I agree that > technically the words are the same but usage within a religious group > has changes this somewhat. Christening is never used in reference to > the baptismal ceremony in some churches and baptism is not used in > others specifically when the ceremony involves an infant. It is then > called Christening and sometimes Sprinkling with baptism a ceremony to > occur at an age at which the child has some comprehension of the > meaning. In the last e-mail, I was addressing only the Roman Catholic > Church practice about which the writer said her RC grandchildren were > christened. In the RC doctrine in the past, the concept of "Original > Sin" and the birth of a child with this "stigma" was paramount. In > the past, the belief and doctrine were that the unbaptised child would > have been condemned to > "Purgatory" and unable to enter the "Kingdom of Heaven" because of > the "stain of original sin" with which he or she was born. The usage > in the Roman Catholic Church was always baptism. This belief has > changed and Purgatory abolished. However, Christening was associated > with Protestant groups. Even though the dictionary gives them as > synonyms, I don't believe that religious groups so view the > terminology. I have no doubt of what was said by the lady discussing > her grandchildren and their Catholic Christening. However, this usage > suggests a mixed marriage and background where the family itself has > exchanged the words. The other words, Sponsor and Witness, are viewed > by some as synonymous but they serve a very different purpose. > > I would suggest that anyone needing the correct terminology for any > specific religious group, adhere to the terminology used in the > records of that group. In the DRC records, I have seen this ceremony > referred to only as Baptism and what many call sponsors, only as > witnesses. > > > > Ray C <raycapp@optonline.net> wrote: > Sorry, but Christening and Baptizing are the same rite. I believe > the verb > christen means to make a person a part of Christendom. > > The New Collegiate dictionary presents Baptize as the first meaning of > Christen. > > Ray C > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara de > Mare > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:24 PM > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > Children are baptized; ships are christened. > > Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. > Historian, genealogist and attorney > 155 Polifly Road > Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 > (201) 567-9440 office > BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) > http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Helen Graves > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2007 6:48:22 PM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > I have received group sheets from other researchers which have stated > "chr. > Kingston Reformed Dutch Church" on them. > > >From the recent discussion, what is the acceptable or most used term > for > listing baptisms at early Reformed Dutch churches on family group sheets? > > "bp. RDC Kingston" - would that work? Or is there some other > terminology and > > abbreviation to use? > > I want to be correct and consistent on my group sheets for listing > the > baptism and the church where baptized. > > Helen > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "MScheffler" <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:04:05 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > I actually agree with you Liz that some churches are very clear > cut on > their use of the terms and much more specific about the theological > definition of the words than are others. > > But if the average person says they are going to a baptism or > christening, we all have a general idea of what is meant, though we > may not > understand the specific nuance of that person's interpretation or of > the > particular brand of Christianity to which they subscribe. I would > assume we > might give as almost many interpretations as we have list members <g> > > Certainly baptism in my denomination -- the United Church of > Christ has > a different theological definition than say in the Catholic Church. > And it > would appear from this thread that the RDC has very specific > interpretations > of the meaning of baptism. I guess I would have expected the > Reformed > Churches to approach baptism like the Presbyterian Church with which > I have > experience(I have learned something). Though, for most practical > purposes > there is probably not a single denomination whose members would not > give a > wide range of what they think the rite or sacrament or ceremony means. > > For genealogical purposes whether a person chooses the term > Christen or > Baptism probably does not really matter except in genealogical data > entry I > like to use terms that I think the particular family might have used. > I > myself almost always use baptism because that is what I grew up using. > > I do know that many of the descendants from my own Dutch heritage > were > members of the Presbyterian Church. My family became Baptist. > > Margaret Scheffler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > ? > > > > The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by > each > > religious group and what we have read here, written by some who > have > > stated the case much better that I, there is a theological > difference in > > some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and > they > > cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As the > > > product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the > Catholic > > Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being christened. > My > > husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC and the > descendant of > > more members of the RDC than I can count, has not heard of > christening > > being used in that particular group. This all goes back to the > suggestion > > that we adhere to the usage by the particular group about which we > write > > which I believe to be an excellent idea. > > > MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism > are the > > same thing. Protestant churches who baptize adults usually call the > church > > ceremony for children "Dedication" when the parents and witnesses > stand > > up in front of the church congregation and promise to raise > children in > > whatever Christian church it is. Usually the congregation takes a > vow as > > well to assist the parents in the process. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Genealogy" <genealogy@cfrobbins.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:51:18 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening/Baptism > Just to throw in my 2 cents worth.. > Having different religions in the same family tree. I had the same > question > growing up. The answer I was told by the clergy. > Different religions have different terms for the same rite. Baptism > is the > same as Christening. "the blessing of the child and washing away of > > original sin" > > Faye > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Marlou322@aol.com > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:04:29 EST > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > This conversation is interesting, but enough already, I had 65 e-mails > today > and a least half of them were about this subject. Can we get back to > > genealogy, and anyone can use whatever term they are comfortable with > in their > family. Marion > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers > free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Jacassidy22@aol.com > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:54:02 EST > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > I am Catholic and we "baptize" our children or adults, the word > Christening > is not used in our Church, at least here in PA that I am familiar with. > > Judy > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers > free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > To contact the DUTCH-COLONIES list administrator, send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the DUTCH-COLONIES mailing list, send an email > to DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the > email with no additional text. >

Hi Allan, From: <allan.kaufmann@us.army.mil> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 93 > Dutch Privateers. Can anyone help me locate info on Dutch Privateers? > Specifically, I am looking for one of my ancestors' ships. Jan Jansen Wanshaer > was part owner in 'La Grace" a frigate from 1644 sailing from New Amsterdam. First re. Jan Wanshaer. Since he married Baertje Kip, there is a couple of pages on him in History of the Kip Family in America by Frederic Ellsworth Kip. See pp 36-38. He is also know as Van St. Obyn, of St. Tobyn, etc. I agree with Mr. Van Laer (NYHM: Dutch; Register of the Provincial Secretary vol II, p. 268) that correct term was probably Van St. Aubin. Now, which of the several towns named St. Aubin it was, I do not know. However, on pp. 268-269 of the above book is a receipt that mentions that Jan Jansen's father is Jan Wansaer residing at "Casant", which Mr. Van Laer says is "Cadsant, or Kadzant, a village in the province of Zeeland, Netherlands." You may also be interested to know that Jan was born about 1621. This comes from a deposition that is in NYHM: Dutch; Register of the Provincial Secretary vol III, pp. 60-61. One of the men testifying is "Jan Jansen from St. Obyn, aged 27 years." The date of the deposition was 28 Sept. 1648. As to the ship, La Garce, it is mentioned many times in the above Reg. of the Prov. Sec. vols II and III. And also a few times in NYHMS: Dutch; Council Minutes (vol IV). However, even though Mr. Kip says that Jan Janszen Wanshaer was a part owner of La Garce, I have not been able to verify this. Mr. Kip also says that Jan sold his interest in the ship in 1646. I did find that sale in NYHM: Dutch; Register of the Provincial Secretary vol II, p. 323-4. However, the seller that might be Jan Wanshaer is shown only as "Jan Jansz." Since there were several men named Jan Janszen, I'm not sure which one this is. I.N.P. Stokes in his Iconography of Manhattan Island vol II, p. 262-3 has a brief bio on Jan Jansen van St. Aubin. Although mentioning other mariner-type activities, he does not mention La Garce. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com