Hi Pete,Sandra, and all, From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > Dear Sandra-- > > I, too, believe the Sara Theunis on "De Trauw" is the one who became the > wife of Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem). The reasons to believe this are rather > involved and ultimately tenuous, however. (I've recently been severely > chastised offlist for failing to adequately qualify my conclusions.) > > As Howard has pointed out to me, the passengers listed on "De Trauw" > are those whose passages were not pre-paid. It would be extremely > interesting to know who paid for the passage of this Sara Theunis but I'm at > a loss on where to find this record, if it exists in the first place. > (Howard??) See the article by Rosalie Bailey: Rosalie Fellows Bailey, Emigrants to New Netherland, NYGBR; vol 94 no 4 pp 193-200. See especially endnote #4. Note that the account book has both a debit side and a credit side. I believe that most of the info for the "passenger lists" came from the debit side. It appears to me from her fn 4 that the entry is listed in the name of the person responsible to pay. She notes also that "Many accounts have no credit entry." Makes you wonder if anybody was inclined to pay the DWIC after the English took over. Also, that Van Laer (in his 1902 HSYB version) included some of the credit info in parantheses and her article now includes many more. She ends with: "many more credit entries remain untranslated." So, it appears that Sara was apparently responsible for payment; but you'd have to get a copy of the relevant credit side to see if someone else might have paid for her. Bailey's article has nothing on that voyage of De Trouw. NYGBS has the account book (KK) on film; a member could probably get a copy of that page. Bailey's article does show examples where other people paid. Several years ago I was trying to figure out all the Jan Teuniszens and determine which was which. I seem to recall that I wrote something to this list (or to you) about some of what I'd found the last time this came up. But for a step in the elimination process, you should read the article by Lorine and Chris in NYGBR vol 131 (July 2000), pp 163-178 on the Pier origins. It has a good description of Jan Teunissen (Pier) in New Netherland; so you could eliminate him (as I think he is not the one you want). Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com > > Ryker in "Annals of Harlem" seems to claim (without citation) that Jan > Theunissen who eventually took the surname "Van Tilburg" was Sara Theunis' > brother. A couple of Harlem court cases show that Jan Theunissen was > intimately familiar with Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem)'s home and that his wife > accompanied Sara Theunis at least once to New York. Several of Jan > Theunissen's children bear the same names as several of Sara Theunis' > children (although they are fairly common names.) On the other hand, > Tilburg is a heck of a way from Rotterdam whence Sara supposedly hailed. > > Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg may have been the Jan Theunissen, possibly a > carpenter from Leiden, who was Schout of Brooklyn in 1646. That Jan > Theunissen may have been either a relative or friend of Tobias Theunissen > from Leiden who was friend and neighbor to Cornelis Switz whose daughter was > Apollonia Eckerson the mother of two of the spouses of Sara Theunis' > children. It's hard to tell if all the Jan Theunissens over the years in > various places are all the man who became Jan Van Tilburg. They might be, > though, since he looks to have been a peripatetic sort. If Jan Theunissen > is shrouded in uncertaintly, the good news is that Riker indicates there > are records relating to Tobias's Theunissen's family; the bad news is > they're in Leiden. > > So, at the moment, the short answer is no one knows who Sara Theunis was. > > --pete

Dear Howard-- Thank you for your comments regarding who may have paid Sara Theunis' passage on "De Trauw" in 1664. I guess I'll have to add this stuff to my "if I can ever manage to get to New York and Albany" file; an awful lot of the books and records I need just aren't to be had around Chicago. Your wondering if anyone bothered to pay the DWIC for outstanding debt after the British took over New Amsterdam is interesting. It might have been simple for Sara to just walk away from the debt under the circumstances. On the other hand, I'd think that if any debts incurred under the Dutch regime were uncollectable due to the change in the colony's ownership a company run by canny Dutch businessmen would sell them at a discount to some canny British businessmen who would hope to collect on them at full value. It's how they do it today and these old businessmen seem to have been surprisingly sophisticated in matters of finance. However, it occurs to me that another way to have handled unpaid passages would have been for the captain to sell the debt to somone at the voyage's terminus. The shipowner would been assured of the revenue of whatever the debt might bring and the buyer would have received full value from the debtor on whom he was is a good position to keep tabs. If this arrangement had been followed I should think the sale would have been recorded with a notary and I gather that only the records of one New Amsterdam notary have survived. I haven't seen anything like this but I haven't waded through more than a fraction of the New Amsterdam court records, either. Be that as it may, I'm not sure Sara owed passage to the West India Company. You and Lorrine have both used phrasing implying that WIC owned or at least controlled "De Trauw" and perhaps the other ships on the Ships' List. I haven't been able to find a clear explication of the shipping setup anent New Netherlands or the WIC but I have found several references to "merchants", "shipowners", WIC-licensed privateers and WIC-chartered ships. Perhaps WIC owned ships outright but the odds and ends that I've found suggest at least some of the traffic between Netherlands and New Netherlands (and apparently at least Boston and Virginia) was via independently-owned merchant vessels. Regarding Jan Theunissen whom Riker claims was the brother-in-law of "Jan the Soldier", presumably Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem), we have touched on him before. We've agreed he wasn't Jan Theunis Spier but that's still about all that can be said with confidence. There were several other Jan Theunissens in New Netherlands and it's hard to differentiate among them. Riker in "Annals of Harlem" has an extended footnote about the Jan Theunissen there being the man later known as Jan Van Tilburg. I've found several records to support this thesis and nothing to contradict it. His identification of that man as the Jan Theunissen who was thrown out of Albany for selling liquor to the Indians is probably also correct although the evidence for it seems scanty. Riker was right that Jan Theunissen tried to become a solider in Delaware but he missed the man's being in jail there for something (the nature of which is not clear). My conclusion that Jan Van Tilburg and Jan Theunissen in Harlem in the 1660's may have been Jan Theunissen, the carpenter who arrived in the "Conyng David" in 1641, and Jan Theunissen, Schout of Brooklyn in 1646, rests heavily on the presence on that voyage of Giertje Nanning. She later apparently married William Fredericks Bout. Bout was an associate of Tobias Theunissen. Tobias in turn had some sort of connection to someone named-- Jan Theunissen. (Actually it's more complicated than that and the interrelationships would run to several pages; it seems like too much to be entirely coincidental but it's shaky even by my standards.) However, a couple of passages in the Rennselear Bouvier Manuscripts seem to indicate that the unmarried "carpenter from Leiden" (thought to be Jan Theunissen) whom Van Rennselear had hired in 1641 in fact had a wife and kids back in Amsterdam who were pestering the patroon about it there during a business trip in 1642. That might help explain a lot of funny things if all these Jan Theunissens were the same guy. For the time being the thesis must be classified as promising but unproven. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > Hi Pete,Sandra, and all, > > From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:21 AM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > > > > Dear Sandra-- > > > > I, too, believe the Sara Theunis on "De Trauw" is the one who became the > > wife of Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem). The reasons to believe this are rather > > involved and ultimately tenuous, however. (I've recently been severely > > chastised offlist for failing to adequately qualify my conclusions.) > > > > As Howard has pointed out to me, the passengers listed on "De Trauw" > > are those whose passages were not pre-paid. It would be extremely > > interesting to know who paid for the passage of this Sara Theunis but I'm at > > a loss on where to find this record, if it exists in the first place. > > (Howard??) > > See the article by Rosalie Bailey: > Rosalie Fellows Bailey, Emigrants to New Netherland, NYGBR; vol 94 no 4 pp 193-200. > See especially endnote #4. > Note that the account book has both a debit side and a credit side. > I believe that most of the info for the "passenger lists" came from the debit side. > It appears to me from her fn 4 that the entry is listed in the name of the > person responsible to pay. She notes also that "Many accounts have no credit entry." > Makes you wonder if anybody was inclined to pay the DWIC after the > English took over. > > Also, that Van Laer (in his 1902 HSYB version) included some of the credit > info in parantheses and her article now includes many more. She ends with: > "many more credit entries remain untranslated." > > So, it appears that Sara was apparently responsible for payment; > but you'd have to get a copy of the relevant credit side to see if someone else > might have paid for her. Bailey's article has nothing on that voyage of De Trouw. > NYGBS has the account book (KK) on film; a member could probably get > a copy of that page. > > Bailey's article does show examples where other people paid. > > > Several years ago I was trying to figure out all the Jan Teuniszens > and determine which was which. I seem to recall that I wrote something > to this list (or to you) about some of what I'd found the last time this came up. > > But for a step in the elimination process, you should read the article by > Lorine and Chris in NYGBR vol 131 (July 2000), pp 163-178 on the > Pier origins. It has a good description of Jan Teunissen (Pier) in > New Netherland; so you could eliminate him (as I think he is not the > one you want). > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > > > > > Ryker in "Annals of Harlem" seems to claim (without citation) that Jan > > Theunissen who eventually took the surname "Van Tilburg" was Sara Theunis' > > brother. A couple of Harlem court cases show that Jan Theunissen was > > intimately familiar with Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem)'s home and that his wife > > accompanied Sara Theunis at least once to New York. Several of Jan > > Theunissen's children bear the same names as several of Sara Theunis' > > children (although they are fairly common names.) On the other hand, > > Tilburg is a heck of a way from Rotterdam whence Sara supposedly hailed. > > > > Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg may have been the Jan Theunissen, possibly a > > carpenter from Leiden, who was Schout of Brooklyn in 1646. That Jan > > Theunissen may have been either a relative or friend of Tobias Theunissen > > from Leiden who was friend and neighbor to Cornelis Switz whose daughter was > > Apollonia Eckerson the mother of two of the spouses of Sara Theunis' > > children. It's hard to tell if all the Jan Theunissens over the years in > > various places are all the man who became Jan Van Tilburg. They might be, > > though, since he looks to have been a peripatetic sort. If Jan Theunissen > > is shrouded in uncertaintly, the good news is that Riker indicates there > > are records relating to Tobias's Theunissen's family; the bad news is > > they're in Leiden. > > > > So, at the moment, the short answer is no one knows who Sara Theunis was. > > > > --pete > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pete, From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > Dear Howard-- > > Your wondering if anyone bothered to pay the DWIC for outstanding > debt after the British took over New Amsterdam is interesting. It > might have been simple for Sara to just walk away from the debt under the > circumstances. On the other hand, I'd think that if any debts incurred under > the Dutch regime were uncollectable due to the change in the colony's > ownership a company run by canny Dutch businessmen would sell them at a > discount to some canny British businessmen who would hope to collect on them > at full value. It's how they do it today and these old businessmen seem to > have been surprisingly sophisticated in matters of finance. In the Bailey article I cited previously, she has a quote from James Riker to the effect that he thinks that after the English had confiscated the Company's property they were going to try to collect these debts. > Be that as it may, I'm not sure Sara owed passage to the West India Company. > You and Lorrine have both used phrasing implying that WIC owned or at least > controlled "De Trauw" and perhaps the other ships on the Ships' List. I > haven't been able to find a clear explication of the shipping setup anent > New Netherlands or the WIC but I have found several references to > "merchants", "shipowners", WIC-licensed privateers and WIC-chartered > ships. Perhaps WIC owned ships outright but the odds and ends that > I've found suggest at least some of the traffic between Netherlands and > New Netherlands (and apparently at least Boston and Virginia) > was via independently-owned merchant vessels. The DWIC had hundreds of ships. I think most were used in the privateering against the Spanish and in trade in the Caribbean. See "Early Dutch Emigration to America" by Hoffman NGSQ 29: 81ff. This chart: http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_shipnyam.shtml shows who owned which ship. De Trouw is shown with a private owner, owner not named. Searching CDNY for de Trouw, I found a couple of interesting mentions. In II:60 it is referred to as a private trader in Feb 1659. In XIV:433-4 at the same date is mentioned that there were colonists now going on it at the expense of the Company. If the same conditions still applied to the 1664 voyage, then Sara Teunis could have gone on a private ship, but still owed the Company. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com Standard Source Abbreviations: http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=96

Dear Howard-- Criminey. I've looked at that page at least five times. Another example of my overlooking the obvious. Kinda interesting that the voyages listed start out with a lot of WIC-owned ships but later on privately-owned vessels predominate. Coincidental to my hypothesis that ship's owners might have sold the debts for passage to New Amsterdam in New Amsterdam, last night I found in an article in the latest "Smithsonian" that in England in the 18th century there was an instrument called a "note of hand" which was essentially an unsecured promissory note to pay a specified amount to somone at a specified time. Apparently notes in hand were bought and traded back and forth. The only way I can figure for that to work is if the notes were endorsed over as today with a third-party check, the point being that in such a case there'd be no record of the debt transfer except on the instrument itself. Thanks to Peter Christopher for the explanation of why there's so little in the way of records relating to the WIC. Pulped. Dear Lord. I guess the bottom line is there were a lot of ways for there to have been no record of who, if anyone, paid for a passage. --pete ---- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 6:29 PM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Ship fares and ownership (was: Theunis / VanArnhemgenealogy) > Hi Pete, > > From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:24 PM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > > > > Dear Howard-- > > > > Your wondering if anyone bothered to pay the DWIC for outstanding > > debt after the British took over New Amsterdam is interesting. It > > might have been simple for Sara to just walk away from the debt under the > > circumstances. On the other hand, I'd think that if any debts incurred under > > the Dutch regime were uncollectable due to the change in the colony's > > ownership a company run by canny Dutch businessmen would sell them at a > > discount to some canny British businessmen who would hope to collect on them > > at full value. It's how they do it today and these old businessmen seem to > > have been surprisingly sophisticated in matters of finance. > > In the Bailey article I cited previously, she has a quote from James Riker > to the effect that he thinks that after the English had confiscated the Company's > property they were going to try to collect these debts. > > > Be that as it may, I'm not sure Sara owed passage to the West India Company. > > You and Lorrine have both used phrasing implying that WIC owned or at least > > controlled "De Trauw" and perhaps the other ships on the Ships' List. I > > haven't been able to find a clear explication of the shipping setup anent > > New Netherlands or the WIC but I have found several references to > > "merchants", "shipowners", WIC-licensed privateers and WIC-chartered > > ships. Perhaps WIC owned ships outright but the odds and ends that > > I've found suggest at least some of the traffic between Netherlands and > > New Netherlands (and apparently at least Boston and Virginia) > > was via independently-owned merchant vessels. > > The DWIC had hundreds of ships. I think most were used in the privateering > against the Spanish and in trade in the Caribbean. See "Early Dutch Emigration > to America" by Hoffman NGSQ 29: 81ff. > > This chart: > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_shipnyam.shtml > shows who owned which ship. De Trouw is shown with a private owner, > owner not named. > > Searching CDNY for de Trouw, I found a couple of interesting mentions. > In II:60 it is referred to as a private trader in Feb 1659. > In XIV:433-4 at the same date is mentioned that there were colonists > now going on it at the expense of the Company. > > If the same conditions still applied to the 1664 voyage, then Sara Teunis > could have gone on a private ship, but still owed the Company. > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > Standard Source Abbreviations: > http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=96 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pete, Can you give the year that Jan Teunissen was in jail in Delaware. Also, to whom did he apply for work as a soldier? > Riker was right that Jan Theunissen tried to become a solider in Delaware but he missed the man's being in jail there for something (the nature of which is not clear). I'd like to chase that a little bit and see where it leads. Penna Archives might have something but I could use a few more details. Thank you, Liz J

Dear Liz-- Sorry for the delay. I'm in the middle of remodeling the library/office and I've had a computer crash. Reconstructing files after the latter has caused me to look further into the matter of Jan Theunissen at New Amstel. You'll find Jan Teunissen and his wife Tryntien Croonenburg in some sort of mess at New Amstel in 1659 here (pp-382-4): http://books.google.com/books?vid=0DwhrCumWqjRdQUli2jYKbk&id=skAOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA382&lpg=PA382&dq=%22jan+teunissen%22#PPA382,M1 This looks rather like it might have been the source for Riker's assertion that Jan Theunissen, later a resident of Harlem, spent some time in Delaware. I'm not at all sure this is the same Jan Theunissen, however. We start with: 1655 04 Dec; Jan Theuniszen van Tilburg; Tryntje Pieters, van Amsterdam Tryntje Pieters may be the 23 year old "orphan" who arrived in New Amsterdam shortly before this but if this is so, it must have been a whirlwind courtship. In any case, burrowing through the New Amsterdam DRC records shows that Jan Theunissen/Jan Van Tilburg married someone named Tryntje Pieters. Ryker thinks this is the Jan Theunissen banished from either New Albany or New Amsterdam itself for selling liquor to Indians. I've found circumstancial evidence to support this but it is hardly compelling; I can't find a record of Tryntje Pieters in Albany at this point. This is followed by--nothing in New Amsterdam DRC, anyway, until: 1663, Jun 13; Willem Simonszen, Jannetie Barents; Lysbeth; Jan Theuniszen, Tryntie Kroonenburg That seems to fit with the New Amstel record but nothing here says Jan Theuniszen and Tryntie Kroonenburg are married. There is this complicating entry at New Amsterdam: 1659 28 Jul; Jeams Braddys, wid Hanna Manning; Catharina Cronenburg, wid Pieter Albertszen Just to REALLY complicate things, someone named "Jeems Brady" and someone named Jan Teunissen were both supposed to be adminstrators in an Ophanmasters proceeding in 1659: http://books.google.com/books?vid=0BWupAp3DVP0xgwKqId&id=gHrQGIAXVioC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=%22jan+teunissen%22+orphanmasters#PPA73,M1 The dates of Jan Theunissen's appearances in the Orphanmaster proceedings don't actually overlap those of the New Amstel imbroglio but they're disturbingly close together for a man to be a fugitive in one location and a pest in a court proceeding in another. The 1663 baptism above seems to involve the Jannetje Barents, widow of Willem Simons, who married a soldier named Hendrick Claeszen 5 July, 1664. (There was another Jannetje Barents who married soldier Jan van der Linden and later Jan Piertszen Bosch--I think.) I have yet to figure out who either husband was or who Jannetje Barents was but none of these people is among those whom I have come to think of as "the usual suspects" in other records relating to Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg. The last entry relating to someone named Jan Theunissen in the Orphanmaster records says he was a shoemaker. Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg seems to have been a carpenter and/or farmer so we may have a case of yet another unidentified Jan Theunissen here. This might help explain the otherwise puzzling matter of Tryntje Pieters deciding to adopt the name "Tryntje Cronenburg" for a while and then reverting to the name Tryntje Pieters for the remainder of her life. *********************************** Also a correction to an earlier post I made: I mistakenly indicated Sara Payne, wife of Luykas Van Arnhem had been a prisoner of the British during the Revolution. In fact, it was Sara Pierson, wife of Luykas' brother Isaac, who is thought to have been a prisoner of the Brits; apparently this traces to an article in the Burlington (Vermont) Free Press, Sept. 5, 1877. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "E Johnson" <iris.gates@gmail.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > Pete, > > Can you give the year that Jan Teunissen was in jail in Delaware. > > Also, to whom did he apply for work as a soldier? > > > Riker was right that Jan Theunissen > tried to become a solider in Delaware but he missed the man's being in > jail there for something (the nature of which is not clear). > > I'd like to chase that a little bit and see where it leads. Penna Archives > might have something but I could use a few more details. > > Thank you, > Liz J > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message