Hi all, From: "E Johnson" <iris.gates@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Marretje Lamberts "uyt Nieuw Nederlandt" See comments below. > But resources in the form of documents exist in the Netherlands, and > should be explored more fully. There is a website which discusses > Lambert Huybertsz Moll and his family --parents as well as children. > Among the mass of ideas presented there are references to documents > which can be found in archives of Amersfoort, ca 1618 to the 1630's. > http://www.euronet.nl/users/warnar/lambertmoll.html > > One of these documents was quoted as saying: > "Immers, op 8 januari 1631 wordt een Lambert Huybertsz Moll, > scheepstimmerman en boer op Long Eylandt genoemd, in wie wij wel een > zoon van dit echtpaar mogen herkennen." > > --which was translated as: > "For, on Jan 8th, 1631, a certain Lambert Huybertsz Moll, > shipcarpenter and farmer on Long Island (Eylandt) is mentioned and > recognized as a son of this couple." > > I mainly agree with the translation, but add that 'echtpaar' means > 'married couple.' The married couple referred to was Hubert Lambertsz > Moll and Geertgen Cornelisdr. (van Schaick) from Amersfoort. > > I think the website author meant that the above quote came from an > article in "Jaarboek van het Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie", Deel > 50, 1996. pages 168,176. The article must refer to records extracted > from the municipal archive at Amersfoort, 1 april 1624, nr. AT002b007, > nr AT002b012, GA Amersfoort, Rechterlijk Archief 436, deel 15, deel > 16. > > This article could/should probably be ordered and explored. > > Looks like there must also be a later notarial document concerning > Lambert Huybertsz Moll's residence on Long Island, containing the date > of January 1631, which can also be obtained. It is not clear to me whether the critical facts were from a 17th C. document of some type or were merely 20th C. comments in the article. I suspect the latter because -- Lambert was not granted his land on LI until 1641. I'm not sure when the Dutch began settling LI, but as of the 1639 Manatus map only 4 families are shown there. > Whether the date, " 8 januari 1631" has been adjusted from 1630, or > needs to be adjusted to 1632, should also be explored. The original > would probably have a notation showing the date as Old Style or New > Style. The Netherlands was using Jan 1 as New Years since 1583. See: http://www.genfair.com/dates.htm So, I doubt they'd still be indicating which New Years style they were using almost 50 years later (if it is a 1631 document at all). It is still not clear to me the source of Riker's comment that Tryn Pieters was the widow of Cornelis Tijsoon van Woggelum. It is not in Bergen's Kings Co.; nor in Innes' New Amsterdam and Its People (both cited); nor in the original (1957) Blauvelt Family Genealogy (not cited). Indeed in the latter, the author also questions the idea that Marretje was born in N. Netherland "for I fail to find any mention of her father in the records prior to 1641." I do not have access to the revised Blauvelt book by D. A. Moos that he cites. Could it be in there? I still think Tryntie was Lambert's second wife. Apparently, Louis Blauvelt (author of the 1957 book) found the bap. of Gerrit Hendrickszen in 1620. His mother was "Geertje or Grietje". I note the first 2 male and 2 female names used by Marretje Mol and Gerrit were: Hendrick, Lambert, Grietje and Lisbeth. So, I'd look for a first wife of Lambert to be a Lysbeth. I agree with Pam that from the standpoint of the usual naming pattern and from a migration standpoint, it would make sense for Huybert born in Arnham to be born before Hendrick born in Amsterdam. I put them in the other order because Hendrick married first and because I had a hole to fill between Hendrick and Abraham. These uncertainties show the need (if anyone does some more searching) to search for Tyntie in both towns and search for marriages and baptisms over a wide enough date range. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

Howard and all, Thanks for the further thoughts. The 1996 "Jaarboek" article would undoubtedbly make at least some of the questions surrounding Lambert Huybertson Moll clear(er), which is why I thought it would be sensible to read it. The website was somewhat chaotic, but the section in which the "Jaarboek" article was cited seemed mainly to do with the Wolferson bleach camp. Trijtje Pieters as well as Lambert Huybertson Moll's names were mentioned in that section, which leads me to wonder if the article might contain comments about a possible relationship of Lambert Moll's wife #2, Trijtje, to the Wolferson family. Note that I am not advocating this possibility, only advocating that those concerned obtain this article and read it. > I suspect the latter because -- > Lambert was not granted his land on LI until 1641. If he had hired on to work for someone else in the first few years --his first time in the colony --he may not have owned land in that period. Even today, many young working parents rent, rather than own their homes. > I'm not sure when the Dutch began settling LI, but as of the > 1639 Manatus map only 4 families are shown there. If Lambert Huybertson Moll had two sons born in Amsterdam and Arnhem in the mid-1630's, and if he did not return to NA until 1641, which appears to be indicated, then it's not surprising he does not appear in the 1639 map. >> Looks like there must also be a later notarial document concerning >> Lambert Huybertsz Moll's residence on Long Island, containing the date >> of January 1631, which can also be obtained. > It is not clear to me whether the critical facts were from a 17th C. > document of some type or were merely 20th C. comments in the > article. This article, giving a January 1631 date of residence for Lambert Moll, should be checked in hopes of learning what the authors' source(s) of information had been. In view of the scarcity of information on this side of the Pond about the early residents here, when we find references to early notarial deeds which could shed some light on this period, we should avail ourselves of them. In view of the ongoing confusion about Marritie's birth place and about Moll's various residences, a 20th century article citing material from 17th century notarial documents should not be dismissed as 'mere.' It rather sounds as if it would be worthwhile to read. There is probably more documentation available over there than there is over here, if we would pursue it. Cordially, Liz J

Hi, Can you tell me what families were the four on Long Island? I know some of my Montfort families went to and owned part of LI. I just don't know which ones. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: "E Johnson" <iris.gates@gmail.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Marretje Lamberts "uyt Nieuw Nederlandt" > Howard and all, > > Thanks for the further thoughts. > > The 1996 "Jaarboek" article would undoubtedbly make at least some of the > questions surrounding Lambert Huybertson Moll clear(er), which is why I > thought it would be sensible to read it. > > The website was somewhat chaotic, but the section in which the "Jaarboek" > article was cited seemed mainly to do with the Wolferson bleach camp. > Trijtje Pieters as well as Lambert Huybertson Moll's names were mentioned > in > that section, which leads me to wonder if the article might contain > comments > about a possible relationship of Lambert Moll's wife #2, Trijtje, to the > Wolferson family. Note that I am not advocating this possibility, only > advocating that those concerned obtain this article and read it. > >> I suspect the latter because -- >> Lambert was not granted his land on LI until 1641. > > If he had hired on to work for someone else in the first few years --his > first time in the colony --he may not have owned land in that period. Even > today, many young working parents rent, rather than own their homes. > >> I'm not sure when the Dutch began settling LI, but as of the >> 1639 Manatus map only 4 families are shown there. > > If Lambert Huybertson Moll had two sons born in Amsterdam and Arnhem in > the > mid-1630's, and if he did not return to NA until 1641, which appears to be > indicated, then it's not surprising he does not appear in the 1639 map. > >>> Looks like there must also be a later notarial document concerning >>> Lambert Huybertsz Moll's residence on Long Island, containing the date >>> of January 1631, which can also be obtained. > >> It is not clear to me whether the critical facts were from a 17th C. >> document of some type or were merely 20th C. comments in the >> article. > > This article, giving a January 1631 date of residence for Lambert Moll, > should be checked in hopes of learning what the authors' source(s) of > information had been. In view of the scarcity of information on this side > of > the Pond about the early residents here, when we find references to early > notarial deeds which could shed some light on this period, we should avail > ourselves of them. > > > In view of the ongoing confusion about Marritie's birth place and about > Moll's various residences, a 20th century article citing material from > 17th > century notarial documents should not be dismissed as 'mere.' It rather > sounds as if it would be worthwhile to read. There is probably more > documentation available over there than there is over here, if we would > pursue it. > > Cordially, > Liz J > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >