I have another example from my own ancestry, of unwed parents both not marrying, and marrying. My ggg grandmother, Neeltje Schermerhorn, wrote in her NT, which I have, of her first child, Claarasa, b. 6 Oct. 1798. She didn't give a last name, as she did for the later children of her marriage to Hendrick Bastiaanse. I posted on this list, back in 2005, a query about who her father was, presuming a first marriage I was unaware of. Several people, including Lorine Schulz, looked for her baptismal records, and discovered "Claara" was bp. in Schenectady DRC 9 Dec 1798, with Neeltje Schermerhoorn as mother, Harmanus Van Slyke shown as father, Evert Schermerhoorn and Elizabeth Schermerhoorn (Elizabeth was Neeltje's sister, Evert Elizabeth's husband) as sponsors. The baby's name was shown as Claara, and she is shown as illegitimate. Not only did the parents not marry, the probable father (there were several men of that name in Schenectady at the time, but only one had a mother named Claara, so Lorine concluded he was the probable father) married someone else later in Oct. 1798. In other words, between the birth of his child and her baptism, the father married somebody else. Lorine searched many other legal records and found nothing but Claara/Claraasa's baptismal record, so concluded the child died young. The mother, Neeltje Schermerhorn, married Hendrick Bastiaanse 24 Mar 1802, three months pregnant with the first of their 8 children. I read somewhere--either on this list or in one of the books on Dutch New York--that about one third of marriages around 1800 involved premarital pregnancy. Doris ---------- Original Message ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 15:37:56 +0000 (GMT) Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Groupon&#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. 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