Hi Listers -- Such a great conversation and it IS good to see the Dutch-Colonies List "come alive" again. I just knew you were all out there lurking :-) According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine <[email protected] >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn Gerritsen -- Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the late Evert Reijers. both of Putten. Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives. So, if they were married in 1631, there is plenty of time for some children to have been born in the Netherlands before the couple came to New York. In fact, it would be unusual if there were no children born before 1640 (the date of the first baptism of a child for them in the NYC Ref Ch). I'm mentioning this because if this marriage date is, indeed, accurate, I think it gives us a new view of the "timeline" and bolsters the idea that Margariet/Grietje may have been born a few years before her 1641 baptism in New Amsterdam. I still think it's very possible that she may have been left in the care of relatives in the Netherlands when her parents came to New Netherland, and made the voyage at some point before 1641 to the new world (either with her mother or with another relative). We know her mother, Vrouwtje, made at least one voyage back to the Netherlands, and even though it was an arduous trip in those times, it's possible she made other voyages back and forth. I'm still having trouble with the idea (even if it WAS technically legal) of a 12-13 year old girl marrying. Even if we can bump her age at marriage up a couple of years, she would still be quite a "precocious" girl, and quite remarkable, actually. But then, it amazes me how well our colonial Dutch ancestors managed, lived, and prospered (and sometimes how long some of them lived) in what must have been conditions we today would consider very difficult. Just to make the voyage here indicates an amazing spirit of adventure, strength and resolve! Pat On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in > 1641. > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > theory. > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of > her birth date or age at any given time. > > Pat > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five >> children >> baptized in NA DRChurch. >> >> Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje >> Gerrits: >> Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May >> 1640. >> New Amsterdam DRCh. >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. >> [NYDC >> 2:10] >> Married: Belitje Quick >> Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, >> Rachel >> Vigne. >> Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See >> below. >> (3) Daniel DeClark. >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys >> vr., >> Cornelis Corneliszen. >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, >> Geertje >> Koerten. >> Married: Andries Jeuriaensz >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje >> Cornelis. >> >> This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who >> married >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in >> 1662 >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. >> >> * * A Brief Timeline on >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * >> >> >> >> >> 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp >> 5 May >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] >> >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen >> VanZell >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] >> The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. >> >> 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA >> v2:160] >> >> Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also >> let it >> stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for >> the >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. >> says, pltf’s >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from >> her >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent >> any further >> damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. >> Parties >> being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was >> justified to >> bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s >> demand is >> dismissed. >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA >> V1:352,353] >> EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married >> woman of >> one year, four months. >> Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that >> legal? Why >> isn't her husband with her or >> mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' >> and >> "her land" Did she own land? >> It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. >> >> 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. >> The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. >> >> Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible >> record]. She has seven children. >> >> 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC >> 1:56] >> No issue. >> -------------------------- >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected >> researchers >> on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, >> wills, >> church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that >> a child >> 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April >> 1654 and >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' >> >> It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her >> brother >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be >> about 16/17 at >> marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a >> child >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name >> another child >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. >> >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay >> Konight >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Thanks very much to Pat and Firth and Chris for pointing to the marriage record and for exploding the myth that "Maijcken Everts = Vrouwtje." Let me add a credible authority for the given-name Vrouwtje. Indeed this was not a nickname, nor a term of endearment. This name was and is a real Dutch women's name. It is a diminutive of the name Frauk. This name has been used for centuries, and is still used today. See Dr. J van der Schaar's Handbook of given names entitled _Woordenboek van Voornamen_ (1964, Prisma), which lists many spellings and versions of the given-name Frauk. In my edition (1992), this is on p. 177. Dr. J. van der Schaar writes that modern interpretation of this name is sometimes rendered as 'Veronica.' Vrouwtje, Cozyn's apparent second wife (married by 1640) is called either 'Vrouwtje Cozyns" or 'Vrouwtje Gerrits' in the baptisms. 'Cozyns' is the husband-nym; Gerrit is the husband's patronym, but it is not impossible that her father's name was also Gerrit __. O'Callaghan didn't help matters concerning Vrouwtje. in RNA 1, his translation of this woman's name comes out first as "Mrs. Gerrits, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen". [RNA 1:96] Ten pages later, though he has it right (as her name). As Chris mentioned, a search for baptisms of children of Cosyn Gerrits and Maijken Everts is important. I checked Amsterdam, & no... not there, unless they were Remonstrants or Mennonites. It might not be a bad idea to check first for records of Harderwyjk, the next closest city to Putten. Regarding Margriete Cosyns, the one who apparently married young, it is not unprecedented to find two children with the same first name in the same family. It appears that there is a lot more to the Cosyn Gerrits and Margriete Cosyns cases than has been verified so far. Rather than constructing fuzzy stories explaining away aspects of these cases that "don't fit", it would serve the truth better to at least attempt to locate earlier records of this family. This requires throwing away all of the mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. There's a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn. Liz J The ocean is not an impassable gulf, and langage doesn't have to be a barrier. The limits exist only in our own minds. Find the edge of the envelope, then stretch it... Fly.