On the "Vroutje" discussion: I have always taken Vroutje, or Froutje, to equate to Sophia. I have several Vroutjes and Froutjes in my ancestry, and those were their given names at baptism. Vroutje does appear in my Dutch dictionary, defined as wife or woman or mistress. A given name (or nickname) equivalent would not appear in a traditional language dictionary. In modern dictionaries, given name equivalents are sometimes included, e.g. "Bill" as both common noun and proper name. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brooks <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:23 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits To: [email protected] > I've been following this discussion and I agree it's good to see so > muchactivity on the DL again. I am not a descendant of this couple > but the > discussion as raised some good information about marriageable age > in New > Netherland and the independence and free spirit of a mere 'woman'. > Our Dutch > ancestors were different than we are and rose to the occasion > regardless of > age or gender. > > My comment however is on the marriage Pat mentioned that was > discovered at > Putten for a Cosijn Gerrits to a Maijken Everts. I had to read her > post a > couple of times because I don't see this the marriage of the couple > beingdiscussed. The comment was made that Vroutje may be a nickname > for 'little > wife' and her name was something else. I disagree. Vroutje and > Vrouwken were > common first names so equating Vroutje Gerrits as Maijken Everts is > highlyunlikely. I checked the Putten marriage ondertrouwen and the > marriagelisting is as it was published and while the first name > Cosijn is rather > uncommon, if this is the Cosijn Gerritsen of New Netherland I would > thinkthis is a prior marriage for him and not the marriage of the > wife who was > with him in New Netherland. In checking the Putten RDC baptisms > from 1631 to > 1639, I found no children baptised for this couple although the > closestmatch was in 1638 for a Jochem son of 'Goosen' Gerrits of > Putten. I would > have to assume that Cosijn may have been born at Putten but likely > marriedVroutje at some other location. I also took a quick glance > at the baptisms > from 1601-1630 and I didn't find the baptism for a Cosijn son of a > Gerrit.Unfortunately many of the baptisms only record the baptism > of a 'kynt' or > child with no name making the task harder. I did find a Gerrit > Jansen as the > father of baptised children but some had no first name. > > Personally, I wouldn't accept the marriage intentions given as the > marriagefor Cosjin and Vroutje although I wouldn't rule it out as > an earlier > marriage for Cosijn. I think you will just have to look in some other > location for a marriage for Cosijn to Vroutje. > > Chris > > Chris Brooks > Kansas City, Missouri > > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Pat & Walter Wardell > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Hi Listers -- > > > > Such a great conversation and it IS good to see the Dutch-Colonies > > List "come alive" again. I just knew you were all out there > lurking :-) > > > > According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine < > > [email protected] > > >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn > > Gerritsen -- > > > > Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim > > Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, > > son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the > late> Evert Reijers. both of Putten. > > > > Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list > > suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the > > "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." > > > > The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives. > > > > So, if they were married in 1631, there is plenty of time for some > > children to have been born in the Netherlands before the couple came > > to New York. In fact, it would be unusual if there were no children > > born before 1640 (the date of the first baptism of a child for > them in > > the NYC Ref Ch). > > > > I'm mentioning this because if this marriage date is, indeed, > > accurate, I think it gives us a new view of the "timeline" and > > bolsters the idea that Margariet/Grietje may have been born a few > > years before her 1641 baptism in New Amsterdam. I still think it's > > very possible that she may have been left in the care of > relatives in > > the Netherlands when her parents came to New Netherland, and made > the> voyage at some point before 1641 to the new world (either with > her> mother or with another relative). We know her mother, > Vrouwtje, made > > at least one voyage back to the Netherlands, and even though it > was an > > arduous trip in those times, it's possible she made other voyages > back> and forth. > > > > I'm still having trouble with the idea (even if it WAS technically > > legal) of a 12-13 year old girl marrying. Even if we can bump her > age> at marriage up a couple of years, she would still be quite a > > "precocious" girl, and quite remarkable, actually. But then, it > amazes> me how well our colonial Dutch ancestors managed, lived, > and prospered > > (and sometimes how long some of them lived) in what must have been > > conditions we today would consider very difficult. Just to make the > > voyage here indicates an amazing spirit of adventure, strength and > > resolve! > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > > > > > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few > years> > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does > not give a > > > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth > or age > > > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, > the norm > > > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > > > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was > born in > > > 1641. > > > > > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > > > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > > > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & > Vrouwtje first > > > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother > brought> > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her > baptized there in > > > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > > > > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > > > theory. > > > > > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > > > > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented > mention of > > > her birth date or age at any given time. > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > > >> children > > >> baptized in NA DRChurch. > > >> > > >> Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and > Vroutje> >> Gerrits: > > >> Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: > 20 May > > >> 1640. > > >> New Amsterdam DRCh. > > >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > > >> [NYDC > > >> 2:10] > > >> Married: Belitje Quick > > >> Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > > >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > > >> Rachel > > >> Vigne. > > >> Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > > >> below. > > >> (3) Daniel DeClark. > > >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > > >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn > huys> >> vr., > > >> Cornelis Corneliszen. > > >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > > >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, > > >> Geertje > > >> Koerten. > > >> Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > > >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > > >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > > >> Cornelis. > > >> > > >> This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > > >> married > > >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen > Haring in > > >> 1662 > > >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > >> > > >> * * A Brief Timeline on > > >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was > bp > > >> 5 May > > >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > >> > > >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > > >> VanZell > > >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > > >> The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > >> > > >> 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, > deft. [RNA > > >> v2:160] > > >> > > >> Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, > and also > > >> let it > > >> stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to > search for > > >> the > > >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. > Deft.> >> says, pltf’s > > >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him > from> >> her > > >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to > prevent> >> any further > > >> damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s > demand.> >> Parties > > >> being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > > >> justified to > > >> bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore > pltf’s> >> demand is > > >> dismissed. > > >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 > [RNA > > >> V1:352,353] > > >> EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > > >> woman of > > >> one year, four months. > > >> Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > > >> legal? Why > > >> isn't her husband with her or > > >> mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her > buckwheat'> >> and > > >> "her land" Did she own land? > > >> It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > >> > > >> 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > > >> The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > >> > > >> Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. > [Bible> >> record]. She has seven children. > > >> > > >> 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC > > >> 1:56] > > >> No issue. > > >> -------------------------- > > >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > > >> researchers > > >> on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many > deeds,> >> wills, > > >> church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe > that> >> a child > > >> 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > > >> 1654 and > > >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > >> > > >> It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than > her> >> brother > > >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and > Vroutje> >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, > she would be > > >> about 16/17 at > > >> marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents > had a > > >> child > > >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > > >> another child > > >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > >> > > >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > > >> Konight > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > >> the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > > the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > Chris Brooks > Kansas City, Missouri > 816-363-1831 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >