Dear Listers, Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on my i-phone during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of what I wanted to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before the lights dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more stable environment. I have six points to remark upon. 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. But, she was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo Grotio, 17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote this: "Boys below the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may not marry." And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five and twenty, and young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one of them alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, could appear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman Dutch Law, yes, she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, along with them in court. There are many instances in which women went to court to defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such a woman, I believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and gumption to do so. 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned land, such as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje married Herman van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it appears, no documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some land upon marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of the 200-acre Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was subdivided among the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up in an article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my website or through my Wikipedia entry. 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of Grietje as "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of Grietje Cosyns, and I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married when she wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. She went to court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is described as having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her buckwheat fields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record doesn't say she sent home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim facts are what we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as to her age. She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to her having died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at this moment, but I did come across it this past week!! So that would mean she lived until c. 1731. 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my publications that refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" them. No way. I was not advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to INFORM those who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want to be informed. Thanks for listening. Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations hence

Wonderful discussion! Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the opposite was a disaster. I have a question: In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting legal prosecution. Fascinating. I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the Hudson." Nancy Terhune Descendant of Grietje through three of her children ----- Original Message ----- From: Firth Fabend <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > Dear Listers, > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on my > i-phone > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of what > I wanted > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > the lights > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > stableenvironment. > > I have six points to remark upon. > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > But, she > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > this: "Boys below > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may not > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > and twenty, and > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > of them > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > Dutch Law, yes, > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > along with > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > court to > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such a > woman, I > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > gumption to do > so. > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > land, such > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > married Herman > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > appears, no > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > land upon > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of the > 200-acre > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > subdivided among > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up in an > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > website or > through my Wikipedia entry. > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > Grietje Cosyns, and > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > when she > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > She went to > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > described as > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > doesn't say she sent > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim facts > are what > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as to > her age. > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > her having > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at this > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would mean > she lived until > c. 1731. > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" them. > No way. I was not > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > INFORM those > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want to be > informed. > > Thanks for listening. > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations hence > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >