Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >