Actually I believe this makes them very human real people who were subject to all the same pressures and desires that we feel today. Too often we make them in to these not quite "real" people, more saintly types which is totally unrealistic. They may have lived their lives, in a different time period, but were faced with many of the same senario's we are, it is, however, quite interesting to see how they handled the situations as they arose. In the years pre-1980 or so if someone got pregnant, they were sent off to the Home for Unwed Mothers, forced to give up their babies and it was all swept under the rung as it it never occured. In this case, it sounds as if the situation was more accepted as "these things occur from time to time." On the other hand, we really don't know just how many children, were of the mother but not of her husband. Often it is assumed that early babies were of the husband, but there is always the case when the man refused to marry or she didn't w! ant to marry him, when a husband was needed, one was either "volunteered or chosen" and not necessarily of the brides choice. Clearly after the death of her husband, Angenientje turned to Jacob Gulig. Perhaps despite the fact that she was pregnant, since he was not baptized, she chose not to marry him or perhaps he choose not to marry her. She went on to marry again, the situation apparently accepted by her family. Assuming they were all aware that babies were not created in the cabbage patch, she was an adult who surely knew what the outcome of her relation might be and dealt with it. We have not discussed divorce, however, I have found that sometimes, the wife left, took the children, moved to another state or location, declared themselves a widow or widower and married again without ever divorcing their husband/wife. Since Divorces were rare events, apparently this is one of the ways that people resolved this kind of situation and often with the support of their family. So again, we can't apply todays rules to yesterdays ancestors. Judy Jun 5, 2011 11:38:37 AM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message