Hi all, I believe the statement that Kieft ought to be sent back on the Peacock was made by Hendrick Jansen Snyder and not Hendrick Hendricksen Kip. The book by Frederic Kip, The Kip Family in America, on page 31 (2nd paragraph) gives us further clues as the source of the statement. Note he says it was an affidavit by Samuel Chandelaer. This affidavit appears in: New York Historical Manuscripts: Dutch; Vol. II, Register of the Provincial Secretary 1642 – 1647; Translated by Arnold J. F. van Laer (1974), pp. 120-121 [original doc. #53b]. The document refers only to “Hendric, the taylor,”. Mr. Van Laer in a footnote indicates he thinks it was Hendrick Jansen that said it. Furthermore, there were several earlier depositions in that same Register where it is clear that the complainer is Hendrick Jansen and not Hendrick Kip. As I recall, the council even wanted to send Hendrick Jansen back to The Netherlands. A new version of the above Register of the Prov. Sec. is now online here: http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/research/online-publications/register-of-the-provincial-secretary-volume-2/ document #53b is on page 83 of that version (p. 88 of the pdf file). I do not know what O’Callaghan meant (below) by “Alb. Rec. iii., 109” I would have thought it refered to vol III in his new numbering of the volumes. However, I note that the History of NN, 2nd ed., was published in 1855 and O’Callaghan’s Calendar of Dutch MSS. was published in 1865. So, perhaps his reference refers to where that item was before he took the books apart and rebound them into their present form. As I wrote in my message of Jan 30, The first date they were definitely in New Netherland is 16 April 1643 when “Hendrick Hendricksen Kyp” witnessed a settlement by Gertruyt Jacobs on her children – New York Historical Manuscripts: Dutch; Vol. II, Register of the Provincial Secretary 1642 – 1647; Translated by Arnold J. F. van Laer (1974), pp. 115 – 116 [original document # 51c]. Now the fact that in this early item he signs his name as Hendrick Hendricksen Kyp makes me believe that he had that surname before coming to New Netherland. Note that many NN immigrants had established surnames before emigrating. Just look at all the families in Hoffman’s series of articles on An Armory of American Families of Dutch Descent, beginning in NYGBR vol 64, no. 1, p. 3. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com From: ekipp@rogers.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:37 AM To: Dutch-Colonies@rootsweb.com ; new-netherland@rootsweb.com Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Hendrick Hendricksen Kip Hendrick Hendricksen Kip (cir 1600- Sept. 14, 1685) The first mention I have found of the surname Kip in the records of New Amsterdam would appear to be March 4, 1643 when Hendrick Snyder Kip said about the Director Kieft of the Colony, “We ought to send the Kievit back to Holland in the Peacock.” [History of New Netherland or New York Under The Dutch, by E.B. O’Callaghan, Vol. I, Second edition, D. Appleton & Company, 1855. P. 272. Original reference: Alb. Rec. iii., 109.] I still wonder why Hendrick took the surname Kip? >From my reading, I know there were other people in New Amsterdam who had the name Hendrick or Hendricksen or some variation of such. Was there some connection with a Kip family in the Netherlands? Has anyone found earlier references to Hendrick either in printed sources or original New Amsterdam records that might help solve this problem? The printed sources I have reviewed are listed in my blog. http://americancanadianancestors.blogspot.ca/2013/02/information-on-ancestry-of-hendrick.html Edward Kipp ekipp@rogers.com www.kipp-blake-families.ca/edwardmain.htm

Hi Edward, It's sometimes possible to know why a surname was chosen, but probably more often not. I know of at least two families in Amsterdam whose surname was chosen because of a carving that was in the gable end of their house (which the original owner had installed). There were 11 Kips in marriage records in Amsterdam between 1564 and 1664, but I did not recognize any of the spouse names as having obvious connections with Hendrick Hendricksz (later Kip) of New Amsterdam. However, I can give you other food for thought, with sources. Hendrick Hendricksz Kip, born in 1600, Nyhuisum, Friesland, Nederlands, Snyder (tailor), published marriage intention on 20 April 1624, Amsterdam with Tryntie Lubberts, born about 1599 at Zwolle, Gelderland, Nederlands, a daughter of Lubbert Unknown. The ondertrouw witnesses were Blommert Sanders and Annetje Hendricks. Blommert Sanders was married with Aelttje Hendricks, and was noted as the brother-in-law of Hendrick Hendrickszen. Annetje Hendricks was noted as the cousin or niece of Tryntie Lubberts. Ondertrouw in Amsterdam, Transcription by me, Liz J: 20-04-1624 Heyndrick Heyndrixsz, van Nieuwenhuys, snyder, out 24 jaren, geasst~ met zyn swager Blomert Sanders, 9 ans woon~ inde Servetsteeg & Tryntie Lubberts, van Swoll, out 25 jaren, geen ouders hebbend, a puero woon~ inde Angelierstraet, geass~ met haer nigte Annetie Heyndrix [signed] Hendrick Hendricxsen, Trineke Loebes [Source: Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 429, p86 - Huwelijksintekeningen in de KERK] Translation by Liz J: Heyndrick Heyndrixsz, of Nieuwenhuys, tailor, 24 years old, assisted with his brother-in-law Blomert Sanders, 9 living in the Servetsteeg & Tryntie Lubberts, of Swoll, 25 years old, having no parents, since youth living in the Angelierstraet, assisted with her [cousin or niece] Annetie Heyndrix. Children --baptisms in Amsterdam personally accessed and read by Liz J: i. Abraham, baptized on 6 May 1625, Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam. Witness: Aeltje Hendricks. [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 40, p.302]. Aeltje Hendricks was Hendrick Hendrickszen (Kip)'s sister. ii. Isaac, baptized on 10 January 1627, Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam, died about July 1678, New Amsterdam. Witness: Jan Hendricks (possibly another brother... but there are a lot of Hendricks around). [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 40, p.377]. He married Catalyntje Hendricks, baptized on 30 September 1629, Oude Kerk, Amsterdam, a daughter of Hendrick Jansen the snyder and Tryntje Scherenbergh. Catalyntje's baptism witnesses were: Geertje Scherenbergh (aunt? or grandmother under husband name?) and Hendrick Hendricks (? possibly the one who became Hendrick Hendrickszen Kip?) [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 6, p.252]. Isaac Hendrickszen Kip later married Marie Vermilye. iii. Baertje Hendricks, baptized on 8 March 1629, Oude Kerk, Amsterdam. Her witnesses were Blommert Sanders (father's sister's husband) and Susanna Brokel [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 6, p.233]. She married Jan Janszen de Caper Wanshaer (aliases: Jan Jansen Van St. Aubin, Jan Jansen Van St. Cubis, Jan Jansen Van St.Obyn, Jan Van Sara, Jan Wanshaer Van St. Benen, Jan De Caper), and later married Jan Dircksen Meyer. iv. Jacob Hendricksen Kip, baptized on 25 May 1631, Oude Kerk, Amsterdam. Witnesses for him were Harman Hendricksen (possibly the uncle who was later known as Harman Hendricksen Drooch*) and Sara Willems [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 6, p.306]. He married Maria de la Montagne. * Drooch (droog) means 'dry'. I found one Harman Hendricksen in Amsterdam, a Droogscheerder (shaver of cloth), married with Trijntjen Andries, with one child (Andries) in 1626. I did not find their marriage intentions, so possibly they married elsewhere. I can't suggest this is the brother/uncle, later Harman Drooch, since there were at least two other Harman Hendricks living in the same period. But this one was working in the cloth industry. One Herman Droogh bought a house in the Boomstraat in Amsterdam in 1656. v. Hendrick Hendrickszen Kip, baptized on 14 August 1633. His witnesses were Grietgen Jans and Aeltgen Vogels. [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 6, p.376]. He married Anna de Sille. vi. Trintje Hendricks Kip, baptized on 8 June 1636, Oude Kerk, Amsterdam. Her witnesses were Femmetje Lubberts (aunt) and Sara Wiltens (possibly? the same as Sara Willems, Jacob's witness?) [Stadsarchief Amsterdam DTB 7, p.91]. She married Abraham Jansen vander Heul. vii. Femmetje Hendricks Kip, baptized on 14 April 1643, New Amsterdam Dutch Reform Church. Her witness was her older brother, Isaac Hendrickszen (here not called Kip). Not for-sure, but I think Hendrick Hendrickszen Kip (tailor) and Hendrick Jansen (tailor) probably knew each other in Amsterdam before they brought their families to New Amsterdam. Both men had lived in Amsterdam since about 1615, and they were only two years apart in age. Best wishes, Liz J On 19 February 2013 11:37, <ekipp@rogers.com> wrote: > Hendrick Hendricksen Kip (cir 1600- Sept. 14, 1685) > > > The first mention I have found of the surname Kip in the records of New > Amsterdam would appear to be March 4, 1643 > when Hendrick Snyder Kip said about the Director Kieft of the Colony, “We > ought to send the Kievit back > to Holland in the Peacock.” [History of New Netherland or New York Under > The Dutch, by E.B. O’Callaghan, > Vol. I, Second edition, D. Appleton & Company, 1855. P. 272. Original > reference: Alb. Rec. iii., 109.] > > I still wonder why Hendrick took the surname Kip? > > From my reading, I know there were other people in New Amsterdam who had > the name Hendrick or Hendricksen > or some variation of such. > > Was there some connection with a Kip family in the Netherlands? > > Has anyone found earlier references to Hendrick either in printed sources > or original New Amsterdam > records that might help solve this problem? The printed sources I have > reviewed are listed in my blog. > > http://americancanadianancestors.blogspot.ca/2013/02/information-on-ancestry-of-hendrick.html > > Edward Kipp > ekipp@rogers.com > www.kipp-blake-families.ca/edwardmain.htm > > From the banks of the Ottawa River, river of the voyageurs! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bill, Once you find the page you want, you can download the image directly. On the right-hand side, next to where the zoom bar is, click Save. A dialogue box will come up, and from there you can give the image an appropriate name, and choose a location on your hard drive. Or else, your computer will probably ask you if you want it to open theimage (with some program), and you can also save the image from there. Liz J On 19 February 2013 13:24, Bill Forshay <billforshay@yahoo.com> wrote: > Debbie or James: I have found some records on the Wills site. Can I ask > how you get the information off the site? I've tried to copy and paste but > that doesn't work. > > Bill Forshay - San Antonio, TX > >

Hello, Mr Forshay: Once you find an image that you want to save, click the slider box on the screen and you'll see "Save" as one of your options. Choose "Save". You'll have a choice of whether to open the image in a graphics program of your choice or to save the file. After you've saved it, click the image icon and Voila! it's yours. ________________________________ > From: Bill Forshay <billforshay@yahoo.com> > > . . .how you get the information off the site? I've tried to copy and paste but that doesn't work. > ====================================================

Debbie or James:   I have found some records on the Wills site. Can I ask how you get the information off the site? I've tried to copy and paste but that doesn't work.                  Bill Forshay - San Antonio, TX >________________________________ > From: Debbie McMurry <mamadebbie2@gmail.com> >To: 'James Harder' <jaharder88@yahoo.com>; dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com >Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:57 AM >Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NY Probate Records & Deeds > >Hi Jim, I have been on Family Search for days now, finding all sort of >treasures.  Much easier if you have two monitors!!!  Legal terminology is a >pain. >Debbie > >-----Original Message----- >From: James Harder [mailto:jaharder88@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:16 AM >To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com; nyulster@rootsweb.com; >nycolumb@rootsweb.com; nygreene@rootsweb.com; nydutche@rootsweb.com >Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NY Probate Records & Deeds > >It's been posted on a few lists but not everyone is aware that FamilySearch >now has many NY Probate Records (wills and administrations) and Land Records >(deeds and mortgages) on-line at their site: > >Land: >https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2078654 >  >Probate: >https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1920234 > >Those familiar with court-house indexes will have no problem finding what >they want.  It's a bit cumbersome, but a lot better than travelling across >the state and paying for copies. > >Jim > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Hendrick Hendricksen Kip (cir 1600- Sept. 14, 1685) The first mention I have found of the surname Kip in the records of New Amsterdam would appear to be March 4, 1643 when Hendrick Snyder Kip said about the Director Kieft of the Colony, “We ought to send the Kievit back to Holland in the Peacock.”  [History of New Netherland or New York Under The Dutch, by E.B. O’Callaghan, Vol. I, Second edition, D. Appleton & Company, 1855. P. 272. Original reference: Alb. Rec. iii., 109.]   I still wonder why Hendrick took the surname Kip? From my reading, I know there were other people in New Amsterdam who had the name Hendrick or Hendricksen or some variation of such.   Was there some connection with a Kip family in the Netherlands?   Has anyone found earlier references to Hendrick either in printed sources or original New Amsterdam records that might help solve this problem? The printed sources I have reviewed are listed in my blog. http://americancanadianancestors.blogspot.ca/2013/02/information-on-ancestry-of-hendrick.html Edward Kipp ekipp@rogers.com www.kipp-blake-families.ca/edwardmain.htm   From the banks of the Ottawa River, river of the voyageurs!

Hi Jim, I have been on Family Search for days now, finding all sort of treasures. Much easier if you have two monitors!!! Legal terminology is a pain. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: James Harder [mailto:jaharder88@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:16 AM To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com; nyulster@rootsweb.com; nycolumb@rootsweb.com; nygreene@rootsweb.com; nydutche@rootsweb.com Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NY Probate Records & Deeds It's been posted on a few lists but not everyone is aware that FamilySearch now has many NY Probate Records (wills and administrations) and Land Records (deeds and mortgages) on-line at their site: Land: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2078654   Probate: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1920234 Those familiar with court-house indexes will have no problem finding what they want.  It's a bit cumbersome, but a lot better than travelling across the state and paying for copies. Jim

http://www.ferienhaus-berlin-buch.de/sjsc/n0edh3zspuiu64aqfvmz9pgrbm/bwhaihvl1aixu1k7ov2o4m.lejmieqyofwcy7ebq0kq

I was told by my County Historian that the site doesn't have permission in their filming agreements to actually post the photographic images online and that they may soon have to withdraw many of the NYS records that they've posted. I have only this one source for this information and do not know how in the loop this historian is. In case this is true, download like the wind! ________________________________ > From: James Harder <jaharder88@yahoo.com> > > . . .not everyone is aware that FamilySearch now has many NY Probate Records (wills and administrations) and Land Records (deeds and mortgages) on-line at their site. . . > ===========================================================================

It's been posted on a few lists but not everyone is aware that FamilySearch now has many NY Probate Records (wills and administrations) and Land Records (deeds and mortgages) on-line at their site: Land: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2078654   Probate: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1920234 Those familiar with court-house indexes will have no problem finding what they want.  It's a bit cumbersome, but a lot better than travelling across the state and paying for copies. Jim

This may be a long shot. I have a Hilliker family in New York City, in directory of 1789. They are butchers, Stephen is the father, and sons John and Stephen are also butchers. The son John, born in New York around 1777, married Mary Ann Wilkes in 1794 at a Lutheran church. Their children were baptized at St. Marks in the Bowery, and they lived on Stuyvesant Street until John's death in 1822. Mary petitioned for her son James to take over the butcher stall. I believe that her father was James Wilkes, and her sister Sarah Wilkes who married William Banta in 1802 (Sarah talks about a long-lived line of dutch heritage just before she died at age 102). Stephen's daughter Sarah married Conklin Seaman. I am trying to trace both the Hilliker and Wilkes families backwards. I don't think the Hillikers are the same family from Westchester, but I may have missed something. Are they from the Jacob Hellakers Swart line that arrived in NA in the 1650's? Is the Wilkes family from Albany? Any thoughts/assistance would be appreciated. Justine

Crawford House kindly sent me the following explanation which I very much appreciate. None the less, safe guard your historic structures. Judy Judith - Thank you for your communication to me regarding the historic Lambert House. I can assure you that there have been no changes to this building other than removing the asbestos siding in 2003. The replacement siding was approved by the historical society including the color. The roof of this building was not raised and the old Dutch door in the basement is just as it has been for many years. If you are looking at our web site, the building that appears is a new building constructed in 2005. It sits on the site of the old barn (to the left of the garage). The old barn had no historical significance and was approved for demolition. On occasion, we have visitors whose ancestors occupied the farm house and they enjoy being able to connect with this structure. I can assure you that the farm house still stands as it has for many, many years. If I can provide any additional information, please let me know. Thank you. Linda

I guess I should have titled this, 'The Death of a House," By chance I happened to google' The Crawford House, Sunset Road, Somerset Co. NJ" which had owned the Lammert Janse Dorlant farm on Sunset Road, Somerville, NJ for years. This became a halfway house for women addicts, but for many years the organization had been respectful of the history of the home, and the exterior remained similar to the Dutch architecture. NO MORE, the house has totally been turned into one that bears no resemblance what so ever, to what it formerly was. The roof appears to have been removed and raised, which means most likely the historic beams bearing the Dorlant signatures were removed, the chimney's removed, siding added, concrete parking places right next to and in front of the house covering the old well. You would never know this was formerly a1739 Dutch House. That being said, they were well aware of the historic nature of the house and its history, my friend Ursula Brecknell had had a good relationship with Crawford House before her death but due to health reasons had not been able to get over and check on it. My own health issues prevented me from going over for the past couple of years and so it goes. The house for all intents and purposes is now gone, although I suppose with in the walls something still exists. Now it looks like a Dr. or Dentists office. Whether or not the cemetery still exists, I don't know, but am inquiring. Its like when a bulldozer goes through a cemetery, one it happens you can't get it back. Our Dorlant house for all intents and purposes is gone. Judy Cassidy

Date: Saturday, February 16, 2013 Time: 1:00 PM Place: Downstairs Meeting Room New City Library 220 North Main Street New City, NY 10956 Topic: Genealogy and Local History Go Hand in Hand! Speaker: Bob Knight Synopsis: Bob Knight, Town of Clarkstown historian, will take the podium at our February meeting. He will be talk about some of the well-known early Clarkstown families and will entertain questions from the audience. Come prepared to ask your family history question!

All of the quoted material below was excerpted from William J. Hoffman, M.S. (Delft), F.G.B.S, An Armory of American Families of Dutch Descent: Van Ness--Van Den Burchgraeff, The New York Genealogical and Biographical Record (April 1941: 148-154). A lot of time has elapsed since 1941 so, as indicated below by Hoffman, additional research in the available records *MIGHT* yield a specific line of descent for Cornelis-1 Hendrickse van Ness from Gerrit van Nes who resided at Gorichem in the mid 1500s. I don't have the expertise to conduct such research but I am posting this message with the selfish hope that some of our listers with greater expertise and access to sources in the Netherlands may be inspired to take a fresh look at the ancestry of Cornelis-1 Hendrickse van Nes [VAN NESS]. ***** QUOTED MATERIAL FROM HOFFMAN ***** Cornelis Hendrickse van Ness, came probably with Andries de Vos to Rensselaerswyck in 1641. >From the records published in ERA III:278 we learn that on July 31, 1625, Cornelis Hendricksz van Nes and Marijgen Hendricks (van den Burchgraeff) made on that date a post-nuptial agreement, probably shortly after their marriage. They were then living at Vianen, on the Havendijk. Vianen is a small city on the river Lek. Hendricks wife was from the neighboring town of Leksmond. Acting on the suggestion made in the statement by Hoppin in Vol. III, p. 184, of The Washington Ancestry of McClain, Johnson, etc, relative to Cornelis Hendricksz van Ness, namely: The emigrant presents an inviting prospect for an inquiry in Holland, I herewith present the data which I have collected as a result of such an inquiry. Americana on p. 372 of 1933 volume shows a van Ness coat [of arms], namely: Argent two bars Gules and Charles D. Allen lists an armorial van Ness bookplate in his American Bookplates. The authority for these arms is not given in these publications, but it seems worth while [sic, worthwhile] to investigate by which family this coat [of arms] was borne in the Netherlands. Acting on the suggestion made in the statement by Hoppin in Vol. III, p. 184, of The Washington Ancestry of McClain, Johnson, etc, relative to Cornelis Hendricksz van Ness, namely: The emigrant presents an inviting prospect for an inquiry in Holland, I herewith present the data which I have collected as a result of such an inquiry. "A seal with these arms was used by Joris van Nes on a record dated Jan. 9, 1546, when he was rentmeester, steward of the lord of the manor of Goudriaan. The same arms appear on the seal of Adriaen van Nes on Sept. 12, 1593, when he was stadhouder der leenen, or steward-supervisor of the property held in tenure from the seignory of Noordeloos. The towns of Goudriaan, Noordeloos, Gorinchem and Vianen are all situated in the same small district in the eastern part of the province of South Holland and are only a few miles apart. "Among the Schepen Records of Gorinchem there are two, dated respectively Jan. 20, 1550, and Mar. 23, 1552 (F xiv, Vol. 13), from which the following genealogical fragment can be assembled, together with data from other records as indicated below. I. Gerrit van Nes had the following 4 sons: i. Joris van Nes, schout, or sheriff of Noordeloos (see his seal mentioned above) mentioned in 1550 ii. Hendrick van Nes, died between Jan., 1550 and March, 1552, the dates of the records mentioned above. His brother Frans van Nes was the guardian over his (unnamed) children. One of his sons was possibly Cornelis Hendricsz van Nes from Noordeloos mentioned Dec. 1, 1559 iii. Frans van Nes was living at Noordeloos in 1552 iv. Cornelis van Nes had died prior to Jan. 20, 1550. He married 4 times He had the following children It is my conviction that the American settler belonged to the same van Nes family of which I have given a genealogical fragment. They and the ancestor of the American family lived in and were identified with towns situated within a five mile radius. The similarity of Christian names is striking and in the family at Noordeloos there is even mentioned the same combination of given name and patronymic as borne by the American founder. A further search in the judicial archives of Vianen might bring documentary proof of the connection. But on the strength of these considerations it seems reasonably certain that the American family is entitled to bear the arms as shown in the illustration herewith. ***** END QUOTED MATERIAL FROM HOFFMAN ***** ***** PERRY'S COMMENTS ***** Please note that the Cornelis Hendricsz van Nes, mentioned in 1559, could *not* possibly be identical with the father-in-law of Pieter Claesen van Norden. However... *IF* this family followed traditional naming patterns, Cornelis Hendricsz van Nes of 1559 would likely have named his eldest son Hendric Cornelisz van Nes and... *IF* such a man existed, he would likely have named his eldest son Cornelis Hendricsz van Nes and... *IF* such a man existed, he would be a *potential* match for the father-in-law of Pieter Claesen van Norden [WYCKOFF]. That is a lot of ifs! Also, Cornelis and Hendric are both very common given names so the name of "Cornelis Hendricsz" could have easily been introduced into the van Nes family documented above, or a different van Nes family, whenever any Hendric van Nes named a son Cornelis in honor of any paternal or maternal predecessor. Perry Streeter (perry@streeter.com) www.perry.streeter.com

Thanks very much, Howard. Droog means 'dry'. I guess that's the surname he chose, while the colonial family became known as Kip. So this must be another sibling of Hendrick Hendricks. Thank you, Liz J On 7 February 2013 14:02, Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for this. > Re. the bap. of Jacob and the witness Herman Heynrix -- > > In 1647 (probably Aug.), there was recorded a “Power of Attorney from > Jacob Hendricksen Kip > to his uncle Harman Hendricksen Drooch to receive money due him by the > West India Company.” > It also says Harman is residing in Amsterdam. See: > New York Historical Manuscripts: Dutch; Vol. II, > Register of the Provincial Secretary 1642 – 1647; Translated by > Arnold J. F. van Laer (1974), pp. 472 –473 [original item # 163f] > > So, it looks like the witness at the bap. _was_ the childs uncle; and > later Jacob > reached out to him to try to get what he was owed by the DWIC. > > O’Callaghan in his Calendar of Dutch Mss. (p. 40) has the uncle as > Harman Hendricksen Droogh. > > I’m curious, what does Drooch/Droogh mean? > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > From: cor snabel > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 5:22 PM > To: Dutch Colonies ; New-Netherland > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Hendrick Hendricksz Kip > > Dear list, > > We have put some minor new details on our website that might be > interesting to Kip researchers, including images and translations of > two marriage intentions. > Go to: > > http://17thcenturyhollanders.pbworks.com/w/page/63040141/Hendrick%20Hendricksz%20Kip > > Regards > Cor Snabel > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all, Thanks for this. Re. the bap. of Jacob and the witness Herman Heynrix -- In 1647 (probably Aug.), there was recorded a “Power of Attorney from Jacob Hendricksen Kip to his uncle Harman Hendricksen Drooch to receive money due him by the West India Company.” It also says Harman is residing in Amsterdam. See: New York Historical Manuscripts: Dutch; Vol. II, Register of the Provincial Secretary 1642 – 1647; Translated by Arnold J. F. van Laer (1974), pp. 472 –473 [original item # 163f] So, it looks like the witness at the bap. _was_ the childs uncle; and later Jacob reached out to him to try to get what he was owed by the DWIC. O’Callaghan in his Calendar of Dutch Mss. (p. 40) has the uncle as Harman Hendricksen Droogh. I’m curious, what does Drooch/Droogh mean? Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com From: cor snabel Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 5:22 PM To: Dutch Colonies ; New-Netherland Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Hendrick Hendricksz Kip Dear list, We have put some minor new details on our website that might be interesting to Kip researchers, including images and translations of two marriage intentions. Go to: http://17thcenturyhollanders.pbworks.com/w/page/63040141/Hendrick%20Hendricksz%20Kip Regards Cor Snabel

Hi all, Sorry to be late with this. I ran across an article by Harry Macy that may be of interest re. our recent discussion here: “Focus on New Netherland -- Pre-1673 dates in the New Amsterdam Marriage Register: Are they dates of intention or dates of marriage?”, New York Researcher, Spring 2012 (vol 23, no. 1), p. 17. He mentions that some in the past have thought the single dates shown in the early records were marriage dates. And then he shows some evidence that these single dates are in fact the dates the intention was recorded and not the marriage dates. (Which agrees with what has been stated in the discussion here.) Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

Some researchers have suggested that Neeltje was Helena Voorhees, daughter of Roelof Lucasse Voorhees and Neeltje Schenck, who was baptized 4 Apr 1731 in New Brunswick, N.J. However I have found no documents relating to Ferdinand Schureman’s wife that refer to her as Helena. She is variously called Neeltje, Neltje, Nelly and Eleanor. For example, in his will, Ferdinand mentions “Wife, Neeltje Schuurman…” John Schuurman, in his will, left money to “Nelly Schuurman (widow of brother Ferdinand, dec’d)…” In Genealogies of Long Island Families, Vol. II, p. 615 there is the following entry: “Martin Schenck was born May 9, 1770, in New Brunswick, N.J., and at one time was Sherriff of Somerset County in that state. He married (1st) in 1789 Margaret Schureman who was baptized there Jan. 22, 1769, a daughter of Ferdinand & Neeltje (Van Voorhees) Schureman.” She is listed among the members of the New Jersey Reformed Dutch Church in full communion as of May 1st 1794 as “27. Neltje Voorhees, widow of Ferdinand Schureman.” In Shuremans, of New Jersey, by Richard Wynkoop, p. 30 we find the following: “Ferdinand Schuurman [6], (Jacobus1), born about 1731, it is supposed: died before June 1782. Perhaps his death and burial were at some other place, while the British were in occupation of New Brunswick. His wife was Eleanor Voorhees.” The same reference goes on to say: “His widow, 'Neeltje Schuurman, widow of Ferdinant [sic] Schuurman,' was received to church membership, on confession, 28, June, 1782. Her tombstone, in the yard of the First Dutch Church, New Brunswick, reads, “Eleanor, wid. of Ferdinand Schuurman, dep. this life July, 29, 1809, in her 89th year.” In all of these references none refer to her as Helena. There is another problem that adds mystery to this Neeltje Voorhees. If she really died in her 89th year, she would have been born in 1720, not 1731, and she would have been about 11 years older than her husband. Moreover, according to Shuremans, of New Jersey, by Richard Wynkoop, pp. 30-31, Ferdinand and Neeltje had 8 children who were baptized as follows: Anne, 20 Jan 1754 at Six Mile Run; Eleanor, 19 Oct 1755 at New Brunswick. (She married John Van Harlingen); Jacobus, 19 Apr 1758; Abraham, 28 Sep 1860 (He married 1: Hetty Combs and 2: Sarah Berrien); Anne, 6 Nov 1763 at Six Mile Run. (She married Isaac Van Tuyn); Lena, 19 Apr 1766 at New Brunswick. (She married Jonathan Combs); Margaret, 22 Jan 1769 (She married Martin Schenck); and Jane, 26 Jan 1772. (She married Abraham Van Arsdalen). If Neeltje was born in 1720, she would have had her first child at age 34 and she would have been 52 years old when her youngest child was born. What's wrong with this picture? Can anyone shed light on whether this Neeltje Voorhees was indeed baptized Helena in Apr 1731, and if so, why does her tombstone say she died in her 89th year, or if not, who were her parents? I would be most grateful!

Hi Howard, Thank you for all of the information on Hendrick Hendricksz Kip. Richard