I can't tell... is this letter supposed to be in the hand of Heerman Augustijn??? [1]http://hetverhalenarchief.nl/newyork/augustijn-heerman -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest_known_depiction_of_New_York_C ity..._is_this_the_artist??? From: <[2]jarm@nycnuts.net> Date: Sat, June 15, 2013 2:48 pm To: [3]DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com, [4]NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known depiction of New York City (c1650). Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited doctor, and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which only contemporary copies exist. Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany a journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible match. Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link to a sample of my handwriting comparison: [1][5]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php ?id =20 [2][6]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ Thanks in advance for your input! Jim Maxwell References 1. [7]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id =20 2. [8]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [9]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://hetverhalenarchief.nl/newyork/augustijn-heerman 2. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 3. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com 4. mailto:NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com 5. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id 6. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 7. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 8. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 9. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Maybe I'm bending this to suit my preconceptions but... this may support the idea that LaMontagne was the artist behind this work as he was both and amateur map maker and an amateur, likely untrained, artist, whereas Heerman was a noted cartographer. Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: Doris Waggoner <[1]waggonerdoris@gmail.com> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 12:00 pm To: [2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com I am by no means an expert on any of this. I don't remember now the picture on Shorto's cover, so can't compare that. The two water colors seem to me to be possible copies. The idea that they may both be of a lost original seems feasible. The one Jim is looking at looks to me to have been done more quickly, and is less polished than the one Howard references. It is from the same angle, while the etching is from the other side of the island, and shows many fewer buildings, but does show the complete fort, not visible to my eye in the two water colors. I don't know what that says about dating. What an interesting discussion and topic, even if it's not possible to come to a definitive answer. Doris On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Howard Swain <[3]hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Hi Jim and James, > > The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover > of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it > briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by > Joep de Koening, > âFrom Van der Donck to Visscherâ in Mercatorâs World 5, no. 4 (July/August > 2000). > > There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokesâ > Iconography of > Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: > > [4]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= > > Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. > (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) > He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph > beginning âFrom the foregoing facts,â > He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. > Of course that was in 1915. > > The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New > Amsterdam and > New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a > similar picture > as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. > > I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes > thinks > all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost > original. > > > Also, note plate 1: > > [5]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= > Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is â1626-8?â > > Regards, > Howard > > > [6]hswain@ix.netcom.com > From: [7]jarm@nycnuts.net > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM > To: [8]DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; [9]NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is > this the artist??? > > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited > doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany > a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible > match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > [1] > [10]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?i d > =20 > > > > [2][11]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > [12]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?i d=20 > 2. [13]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [14]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [15]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:waggonerdoris@gmail.com 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 4. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= 5. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 6. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 7. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 8. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com 9. mailto:NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com 10. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id 11. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 12. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 13. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 14. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 15. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

I am by no means an expert on any of this. I don't remember now the picture on Shorto's cover, so can't compare that. The two water colors seem to me to be possible copies. The idea that they may both be of a lost original seems feasible. The one Jim is looking at looks to me to have been done more quickly, and is less polished than the one Howard references. It is from the same angle, while the etching is from the other side of the island, and shows many fewer buildings, but does show the complete fort, not visible to my eye in the two water colors. I don't know what that says about dating. What an interesting discussion and topic, even if it's not possible to come to a definitive answer. Doris On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Hi Jim and James, > > The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover > of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it > briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by > Joep de Koening, > “From Van der Donck to Visscher” in Mercator’s World 5, no. 4 (July/August > 2000). > > There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokes’ > Iconography of > Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > > Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. > (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) > He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph > beginning “From the foregoing facts,” > He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. > Of course that was in 1915. > > The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New > Amsterdam and > New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a > similar picture > as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. > > I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes > thinks > all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost > original. > > > Also, note plate 1: > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= > Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is “1626-8?” > > Regards, > Howard > > > hswain@ix.netcom.com > From: jarm@nycnuts.net > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM > To: DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is > this the artist??? > > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited > doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany > a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible > match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > [1] > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id > =20 > > > > [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 > 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'll check it out... Thanks! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: Marleen Van Horne <[1]msvnhrn@jps.net> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 11:22 am To: [2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Last year my local Family History Center discarded the book DUTCH AND ENGLISH ON THE HUDSON, by Maud Wilder Goodwin, 1919. I do not know how accurate her information is, on page 76, is a copy of the picture from the second link in Howard's message. It describes the image as New Amsterdam, about 1630,"The earliest engraved view of New York. In A DESCRIPTION OF NEW NETHERLANDS, VIRGINIA AND NEW ENGLEND, by Joost Hartgens published in Amsterdam, 1651. In the New York Public Library. On page 30 there is another "Drawing from an old print." The Fort at New Amsterdam. This book is available at [3]abebooks.com, many copies for under $5. Interestingly several companies have reprinted the book in recent years. Marleen Van Horne -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [4]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:msvnhrn@jps.net 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. http://abebooks.com/ 4. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Last year my local Family History Center discarded the book DUTCH AND ENGLISH ON THE HUDSON, by Maud Wilder Goodwin, 1919. I do not know how accurate her information is, on page 76, is a copy of the picture from the second link in Howard's message. It describes the image as New Amsterdam, about 1630,"The earliest engraved view of New York. In A DESCRIPTION OF NEW NETHERLANDS, VIRGINIA AND NEW ENGLEND, by Joost Hartgens published in Amsterdam, 1651. In the New York Public Library. On page 30 there is another "Drawing from an old print." The Fort at New Amsterdam. This book is available at abebooks.com, many copies for under $5. Interestingly several companies have reprinted the book in recent years. Marleen Van Horne -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

Thanks Howard! Thant was great input. I believe, if I remember correctly, Stoke mentions LaMontagne as being the possible drafter of the ORIGINAL Manatvs Map, of which only supposed copies exist. I have read some of Joep de Koening's comments on this image, but I don't think I saw that article. I think I might try to contact him after I do a little more work. I have tried some to obtain samples of Augustijn Herrman's handwriting, but have only, as yet, seeing mention of his signature, which by itself might help. I will take another look at the Visscher Map. There was a book released in 2010 which contained the maps of the WIC and that work had several maps attributed to LaMontagne, but I can't find a library that carries it, including the NYPL, or the Family History Library. Thanks Howard---your input has served me well! Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: "Howard Swain" <[1]hswain@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 10:37 am To: <[2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Hi Jim and James, The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by Joep de Koening, âFrom Van der Donck to Visscherâ in Mercatorâs World 5, no. 4 (July/August 2000). There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokesâ Iconography of Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: [3]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph beginning âFrom the foregoing facts,â He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. Of course that was in 1915. The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New Amsterdam and New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a similar picture as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes thinks all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost original. Also, note plate 1: [4]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_580072 7_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&l eft= Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is â1626-8?â Regards, Howard [5]hswain@ix.netcom.com From: [6]jarm@nycnuts.net Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM To: [7]DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; [8]NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known depiction of New York City (c1650). Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited doctor, and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which only contemporary copies exist. Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany a journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible match. Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link to a sample of my handwriting comparison: [1][9]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php ?id =20 [2][10]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ Thanks in advance for your input! Jim Maxwell References 1. [11]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?i d=20 2. [12]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [13]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 4. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left 5. mailto:hswain@ix.netcom.com 6. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 7. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com 8. mailto:NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com 9. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id 10. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 11. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 12. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 13. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Hi Jim and James, The picture you show appears to be the same one as was used on the cover of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. He mentions it briefly on p. 218. One source he cites for his comments is an article by Joep de Koening, “From Van der Donck to Visscher” in Mercator’s World 5, no. 4 (July/August 2000). There is a similar painting as the frontispiece of I. N. P. Stokes’ Iconography of Manhattan Island ..., vol. 1. You can see it here: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000006.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= Stokes has a long discussion of this starting on p. 119. (Augustine Herrman is mentioned on p. 121.) He discusses the possible date of the view on p. 122 in the paragraph beginning “From the foregoing facts,” He says on p. 121 that the author of this view is unknown. Of course that was in 1915. The plates before p. 119 show several other maps and views of New Amsterdam and New Netherland. Including the Visscher map (plate 7-b), which has a similar picture as a little inset at the bottom. See discussion on p. 147-8. I just quickly skimmed these discussions, but it appears to me that Stokes thinks all of the similar views he shows were copies made from some now lost original. Also, note plate 1: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5800727_001/pages/ldpd_5800727_001_00000174.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= Discussed on pp. 131-5. The date depicted is “1626-8?” Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com From: jarm@nycnuts.net Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:48 PM To: DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com ; NEW-NETHERLAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known depiction of New York City (c1650). Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited doctor, and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which only contemporary copies exist. Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany a journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible match. Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link to a sample of my handwriting comparison: [1]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id =20 [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ Thanks in advance for your input! Jim Maxwell References 1. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/

That sound like a good term Peter... I think that would be the perfect term for two of the sample documents, one of which was from a letter to the English Ambassador at the Hague, and the other to the Governor of Canada--the third sample came from his journal. My main point is that all of these documents had different purposes behind them, which might have had an effect on the handwriting used in each. I'm considering ordering samples of watercolors previously attributed to LaMontagne, but their not cheap. I will wait until I receive more of his handwriting samples that I have already ordered, and complete some more analysis. Right now I do value ANY and ALL input! Appreciatively yours, Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: "Peter " <[1]pchrist1@nycap.rr.com> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 9:47 am To: <[2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Perhaps the term you want is clerical (or secretarial) hand. Peter Christoph -----Original Message----- From: [3]dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com [[4]mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of [5]jarm@nycnuts.net Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:31 AM To: [6]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? Thanks for your input Nancy! Calligraphy wasn't the right word.... and I still don't have a word to describe it---may just more deliberate, as someone might do on a piece of artwork. Most letters had several variations and I tried to include examples of each, you would have to take your time to notice the similarities. Two of the handwriting samples I had for LaMontagne were from documents written in French 30 years earlier. I have order additional, more contemporaneous, handwriting samples. It could just be my wishful thinking. Thanks again! Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: Nancy Terhune <[1][7]nancyterhune@optonline.net> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 5:46 am To: [2][8]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Cc: [3][9]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com, [4][10]new-netherland@rootsweb.com Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the map. The map is really extraordinary. I'm not a graphologist or calligrapher, but I see most of the letter forms in your comparisons as quite different, the slants different, and I don't see a calligraphic style in the map script. Calligraphy produces letter forms that are consistent and clean and much less connected because of the emphasis on forming each letter perfectly. These are only my amateur observations. Does anyone have a better handle on this? Nancy On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:48 PM, [5][11]jarm@nycnuts.net wrote: > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest > known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first > accredited doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft > and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as > Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which > Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of > the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â > of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in questionâæ This watercolor, which is in the > National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op > het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have > done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs > handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. > There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that > accompany a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National > Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. > Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a > possible match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well > as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > > [1][6][12]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht .php ?id > =20 > > > [2][7][13]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > [8][14]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.ph p?id =20 > 2. [9][15]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [10][16]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [11][17]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. [18]mailto:nancyterhune@optonline.net 2. [19]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. [20]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. [21]mailto:new-netherland@rootsweb.com 5. [22]mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 6. [23]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?i d 7. [24]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 8. [25]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?i d=20 9. [26]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 10. [27]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 11. [28]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [29]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [30]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:pchrist1@nycap.rr.com 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com 4. mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com 5. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 6. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 7. mailto:nancyterhune@optonline.net 8. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 9. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 10. mailto:new-netherland@rootsweb.com 11. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 12. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php 13. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 14. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php 15. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 16. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 17. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 18. mailto:nancyterhune@optonline.net 19. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 20. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 21. mailto:new-netherland@rootsweb.com 22. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 23. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php 24. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 25. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php 26. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 27. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 28. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 29. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 30. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the map. The map is really extraordinary. I'm not a graphologist or calligrapher, but I see most of the letter forms in your comparisons as quite different, the slants different, and I don't see a calligraphic style in the map script. Calligraphy produces letter forms that are consistent and clean and much less connected because of the emphasis on forming each letter perfectly. These are only my amateur observations. Does anyone have a better handle on this? Nancy On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:48 PM, jarm@nycnuts.net wrote: > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest > known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first > accredited doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft > and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as > Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which > Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of > the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â > of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the > National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op > het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have > done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs > handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. > There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that > accompany a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National > Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. > Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a > possible match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well > as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > > [1]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id > =20 > > > [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 > 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your input Nancy! Calligraphy wasn't the right word.... and I still don't have a word to describe it---may just more deliberate, as someone might do on a piece of artwork. Most letters had several variations and I tried to include examples of each, you would have to take your time to notice the similarities. Two of the handwriting samples I had for LaMontagne were from documents written in French 30 years earlier. I have order additional, more contemporaneous, handwriting samples. It could just be my wishful thinking. Thanks again! Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Earliest known depiction of New York City... is this the artist??? From: Nancy Terhune <[1]nancyterhune@optonline.net> Date: Sun, June 16, 2013 5:46 am To: [2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Cc: [3]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com, [4]new-netherland@rootsweb.com Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the map. The map is really extraordinary. I'm not a graphologist or calligrapher, but I see most of the letter forms in your comparisons as quite different, the slants different, and I don't see a calligraphic style in the map script. Calligraphy produces letter forms that are consistent and clean and much less connected because of the emphasis on forming each letter perfectly. These are only my amateur observations. Does anyone have a better handle on this? Nancy On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:48 PM, [5]jarm@nycnuts.net wrote: > Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest > known > depiction of New York City (c1650). > > > > Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first > accredited doctor, > and held important government positions under both William Kieft > and Peter > Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as > Harlem, as > well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which > Wall Street > is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of > the > early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â > of which > only contemporary copies exist. > > > > Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the > National > Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op > het > Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have > done my own > handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs > handwriting, > and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. > There > are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that > accompany a > journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National > Library > of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. > Iâm > looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a > possible match. > > > > Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well > as a link > to a sample of my handwriting comparison: > > > > > [1][6]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php ?id > =20 > > > [2][7]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > > > Jim Maxwell > > References > > 1. > [8]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id =20 > 2. [9]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [10]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [11]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:nancyterhune@optonline.net 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. mailto:new-netherland@rootsweb.com 5. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 6. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id 7. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 8. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 9. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples 10. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 11. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Iâm trying to prove the identity of the artist behind the earliest known depiction of New York City (c1650). Johannes LaMontagne is said to have been New Yorkâs first accredited doctor, and held important government positions under both William Kieft and Peter Stuyvesant. He built the first house in what today is known as Harlem, as well as being tasked with building the defensive wall for which Wall Street is named. Some sources name him as the possible drafter of some of the early maps of New Netherland including the original âManatvs Map,â of which only contemporary copies exist. Regarding the image in question⦠This watercolor, which is in the National Library of Austria and titled âDe Stadt Nieuw Amsterdam gelegen op het Eylandt Manhattan...,â was only uncovered in the 1990s. I have done my own handwriting comparison between known samples of LaMontagneâs handwriting, and the writing found on that watercolor, and I believe they match. There are also known samples of watercolors painted by LaMontagne that accompany a journal of an expedition to Guianaâthese are housed in the National Library of Great Britain. I think these could also be used for comparison. Iâm looking for some advice, suggestions and opinions on being a possible match. Below is a link to an image of the watercolor in question as well as a link to a sample of my handwriting comparison: [1]http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id =20 [2]http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/ Thanks in advance for your input! Jim Maxwell References 1. http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/kartenzimelien/grossansicht.php?id=20 2. http://nycnuts.net/lamontagne_handwriting_samples/

One last try... Sorry, I pasted an incomplete address---here's the correct link: [1]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] fixed broken link...RE: Missing link.... Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: <[2]jarm@nycnuts.net> Date: Sat, June 08, 2013 12:49 pm To: [3]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Sorry, I pasted an incomplete address---here's the correct link: [1][4]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Missing link.... Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: <[2][5]jarm@nycnuts.net> Date: Sat, June 08, 2013 12:44 pm To: [3][6]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com I think I forgot to provide the link to those consecutive deeds which are at the bottom of the page... Here's the link: [1][4][7]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: James Nevius <[2][5][8]james.nevius@gmail.com> Date: Fri, June 07, 2013 5:36 pm To: [3][6][9]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Forgive me if this has been discussed before and I just can't find it. I am trying to find a death date for the above Anne. The best I've found is "after 1724," presumably when she disappears from the historical record. Does anyone have a more secure death date for her? Many thanks, James * * * * James Nevius author of "Inside the Apple: A Streetwise History of New York City" âA smart and entertaining window on the city of the past.â âThe New York Times [4][7][10]http://www.insidetheapple.net And don't forget to read our NYC history blog at [5][8][11]http://blog.insidetheapple.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [6][9][12]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. [10][13]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 2. [11][14]mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 3. [12][15]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. [13][16]http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 5. [14][17]http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 6. [15][18]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [16][19]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. [20]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html 2. [21]mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 3. [22]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. [23]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 5. [24]mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 6. [25]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 7. [26]http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 8. [27]http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 9. [28]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 10. [29]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 11. [30]mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 12. [31]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 13. [32]http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 14. [33]http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 15. [34]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 16. [35]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [36]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html 2. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 3. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 5. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 6. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 7. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 8. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 9. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 10. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 11. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 12. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 13. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 14. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 15. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 16. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 17. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 18. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 19. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 20. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 21. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 22. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 23. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 24. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 25. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 26. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 27. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 28. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 29. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 30. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 31. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 32. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 33. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 34. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 35. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 36. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Sorry, I pasted an incomplete address---here's the correct link: [1]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Missing link.... Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: <[2]jarm@nycnuts.net> Date: Sat, June 08, 2013 12:44 pm To: [3]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com I think I forgot to provide the link to those consecutive deeds which are at the bottom of the page... Here's the link: [1][4]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: James Nevius <[2][5]james.nevius@gmail.com> Date: Fri, June 07, 2013 5:36 pm To: [3][6]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Forgive me if this has been discussed before and I just can't find it. I am trying to find a death date for the above Anne. The best I've found is "after 1724," presumably when she disappears from the historical record. Does anyone have a more secure death date for her? Many thanks, James * * * * James Nevius author of "Inside the Apple: A Streetwise History of New York City" âA smart and entertaining window on the city of the past.â âThe New York Times [4][7]http://www.insidetheapple.net And don't forget to read our NYC history blog at [5][8]http://blog.insidetheapple.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [6][9]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. [10]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 2. [11]mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 3. [12]mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. [13]http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 5. [14]http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 6. [15]mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [16]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.html 2. mailto:jarm@nycnuts.net 3. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 5. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 6. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 7. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 8. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 9. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 10. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 11. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 12. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 13. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 14. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 15. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com 16. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

I think I forgot to provide the link to those consecutive deeds which are at the bottom of the page... Here's the link: [1]http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: James Nevius <[2]james.nevius@gmail.com> Date: Fri, June 07, 2013 5:36 pm To: [3]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Forgive me if this has been discussed before and I just can't find it. I am trying to find a death date for the above Anne. The best I've found is "after 1724," presumably when she disappears from the historical record. Does anyone have a more secure death date for her? Many thanks, James * * * * James Nevius author of "Inside the Apple: A Streetwise History of New York City" âA smart and entertaining window on the city of the past.â âThe New York Times [4]http://www.insidetheapple.net And don't forget to read our NYC history blog at [5]http://blog.insidetheapple.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [6]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://nycnuts.net/ancestors/documents/vreeland/enoch1687/index.htm 2. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 3. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 4. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 5. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 6. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Hi James, If you go to the following link, and at the bottom of that page, there you will find consecutive deeds that pertain to Samuel Bayard, who I believe inherited property---property once owned by my ancestor Enoch Freeland (Vreeland---from his father-in-law Etienne DeLancey. I don't have the inclination to verify that the deeds mention Etienne Delancey, but they might... I do remember that I have seen transfers of this property that did mention both Samuel Bayard and Etienne Delancey. As to the death of Ann... You might get an idea of the date of her death from checking deeds. The most complete source for early New Jersey deeds is a two volume set of the work, "Colonial Conveyances: Provinces of East and West New Jersey, 1664-1794." published in 1974. This would probably be your only chance of finding something new on Ann that wasn't uncovered long ago. If recall correctly, Etienne Delancey was a member of the French Reformed Church in NYC---though I believe he was involved in the big squabble there over the minister Louis Rou---I don't think there are any death records for this time period for that church. If he left that church, because of the squabble, then you might check the burial records for the DRC in NYC which can be found online. You might also check the Superior Court online database hosted by the NJ Archives... Ann may not be in the database, but she might be named in the actual case files for those cases that pertain to her husband or her father. Anyway, just an idea or two. Happy Hunting! Jim M. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Anne (Anna/Ann) Van Cortlandt, wife of Etienne (Stephen) DeLancey From: James Nevius <[1]james.nevius@gmail.com> Date: Fri, June 07, 2013 5:36 pm To: [2]dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Forgive me if this has been discussed before and I just can't find it. I am trying to find a death date for the above Anne. The best I've found is "after 1724," presumably when she disappears from the historical record. Does anyone have a more secure death date for her? Many thanks, James * * * * James Nevius author of "Inside the Apple: A Streetwise History of New York City" âA smart and entertaining window on the city of the past.â âThe New York Times [3]http://www.insidetheapple.net And don't forget to read our NYC history blog at [4]http://blog.insidetheapple.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [5]DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:james.nevius@gmail.com 2. mailto:dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com 3. http://www.insidetheapple.net/ 4. http://blog.insidetheapple.net/ 5. mailto:DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com

Among the Van Horne documents is an apprenticeship document for George White, son of Matheas White. George was apprenticed to John Van Horne, 12 June 1815, in New Brunswick, New Jersey. If this is your family, keep a check on the New Jersey Archives website, for when the document is posted on-line. Marleen Van Horne -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

This deed is not a part of the new Van Horne document collection. I had it in my document collection, but it lists the names of the children of James Van Horne, son of Andrew Van Horne, # 19, as adults. Marleen Van Horne Monmouth County, New Jersey Deed Book R, Page 534-535 Andrew Van Horne & others To Reuben Randolph } Quit claim Indented This Indenture made the seventh day of may in the year of our lord one thousand eight hundred and eight Between Reuben Randolph of the one part & Andrew Vanhorn james Vanhorn Michael Vanhorn John Vanhorn Abraham Vanhorn Elizabeth Vanhorn James Mckay and Mary his wife of the other part it witnesseth that the said Andrew Vanhorn James Vanhorn Michael Vanhorn James Mckay and Mary his wife for and in consideration of fifty dollars to tem paid in hand at tand before ensealing & delivery hereof by the sd. Andrew Vanhorn James Vanhorn Michael Vanhorn John Vanhorn Abraham Vanhorn Elizabeth Vanhorn James Mckay & Mary his wife do grant bargain sell remised released and forever quit claimed and by these presents for themselves their heirs and assigns doth fully absolutely clearly remise release and forever quit claim unto Reuben Randolph his full and peaceable possesion and seizen and his heirs and assigns forever all such rights title estate interest and demand whatsoever we the sd. Andrew Vanhorn James Vanhorn Michael Vanhorn John Vanhorn Abraham Vanhorn Elizabeth Vanhorn James McKay & Mary his wife had or aught too have had in a certain tract of land lying and being in the Township of Stafford and County of Monmouth State of New Jersey Beginning at a small oak bush being the cornor of a survey made to John Williams April the Sixteenth one thousand seen hundred and seventy three of 52 ½ acres recorded in book S7 page 6 first running north twenty eight degrees east twenty five chains (2) running south forty degrees east twenty five chains (3) thence running south forty one degrees west fifteen chains and twenty links (4) thence running north forty five degrees and thirty minutes west seventeen chains (5) thence running south forty eight dgs. West ten chains to the beginning containing thirty nine acres and forty six hundreds of an acre strick measure to have and to hold together with all the appurtenances there unto belonging or inany wise apperttaining and to the only proper use and behoof of the sd. Reuben Randolph his heirs and assigns forever so that they the sd. Andrew Vanhorn James Vanhorn Michael Vanhorn John Vanhorn Abraham Vanhorn Elizabeth Vanhorn James Mckay and Mary his wife nor their heirs nor assigns nor any other person or persons for then or in their names or in the name right or stead of them shall or will any way or means hereafter have any claim or chalenge or deman any estate right title interest of in and to the premises or any part or parcel thereof but from all and every action of and in and to the premises or any part shall be utterly Excluded and forever bared by these presents---In Witness whereof we have set our hands and seals this 10th day of may one thousand eitht hundred and eight 1808------------ Andrew Vanhorn {seal} Michael Vanhorn {seal} Elizabeth Vanhorn {seal} James Vanhorn {seal} John Vanhorn {seal} Abraham Vanhorn {seal} James F. Mackay {seal} Mary Mackay {seal} Sealed and delivered in the presence of Phinehas Kent William Kent Joseph Sutton Came before me John F. Randolph one of the Judges of the court of common pleas for the county of Middlesex State of New Jersey Phinias Kent one of the subscribing witnesses who being duly sworn on the holy avangelis said he saw the within named grantors signe and acknowledge the within writing to be of their free volentery act for the yous and purposes therein mentioned and the said mary wife of the said James Mckay was separate from her husband. Dunn before e this sixth day of July eighten hundred and eight --------- John F. Randolph Received and recorded this Sixth day of December 1808 -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

In June 2011, I received a message from a gentleman who had inherited 42 ORIGINAL documents relating to the Van Horne surname. He was not a Van Horne descendant, and wanted to donate the document to a place where they would be cared for and publically available. I had him inventory the documents. Based in information in the inventory I had him scan and send to me specific documents from the list. With that information I was able to identify the family as that of Jan Cornelisen van Hoorn. Those of you who research this family will be familiar with the George Olin Zabriskie genealogy in The American Genealogist, The Jan Cornelisen Van Hoorn / Van Horne Family of New York and New Jersey. I believe this is considered the most authoritative genealogy on the family. In spite of that it has holes, where original documents simply were not available to continue the lines of descent. These documents fill in one of those holes. Jan / John Van Hoorn, Zabriskie # 7, had a son, Andries / Andrew Van Horne, # 19, b.1706, d. 1747. The last known documentation for Andrew was his will written in 1742, and a codicil that mentions the possibility of an as yet unborn fourth child. The documents which range in date from 1719 to the 1930s contain Andrew’s original will, deeds, private letters, land descriptions, a plat, an apprenticeship document, and a Bible page. It is apparent from the documents that Andrew Van Horne and his wife, Mary Kearney only had the three children named in the will, James Van Horne, Catherine Van Horne and Sarah Van Horne. If a fourth child was born, it did not survive to adulthood, as it was not mentioned in the deed when Andrew’s land was sold, 1762. The Bible page lists the births of the children of James Van Horne and his wife, Elizabeth LNU. The documents were passed down in the family of their son, John Van Horne, b.1786. John was a shoemaker first in New Brunswick, New Jersey and later in Berks County, Pennsylvania. His descendants still live in Pennsylvania. Last week, the entire document collection was transferred to the New Jersey State Archives. Joseph Klett informed me that the collection is available to researchers who come into the Archives, in Trenton, and will be available on-line in about two months. Marleen Van Horne -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

The names of the Children of James & Elizth Van horne born 1742 who were married by the Revd Abm Beach Jany: 3d 1777 Andrew..........Friday.....Apl 17 1778......at 10 P.M. Mary............Sunday.....Apl 16 1780......at 6 P. M. James...........Wednesday..Decm 4 1782......at 4 P. M. Michael Kearny..Friday.....May 6 ^ 1785.....at 1 A. M. John............Tuesday....Decm 12th 1786...at 1 A. M. Philip..........Sunday.....Augt 3 1788......at 1 P. M. Elizabeth.......Monday.....Septemr 27 1790..at 4 P. M. Abm Beach.......Thursday...July 19th 1792...at 3 P. M. Arabella........Friday.....6 March 1795.....dat 3 P. M. Who died the Eighth Day following. James Van Horne, Father of the above named Children Died 22 May 1795 Aged 53 yrs Historical Note: This is apparently a page from the family Bible of James Van Horne, d. 1795, and his wife, Elizabeth. Document 17 states the Bible page was torn out of the Bible by Levenia Augusta Van Horne and given to Imogene Van Horne Bush. -- When the people, who made the music of your youth, begin dying of old age, you know that you, too, are old.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before and I just can't find it. I am trying to find a death date for the above Anne. The best I've found is "after 1724," presumably when she disappears from the historical record. Does anyone have a more secure death date for her? Many thanks, James * * * * James Nevius author of "Inside the Apple: A Streetwise History of New York City" “A smart and entertaining window on the city of the past.” —The New York Times http://www.insidetheapple.net And don't forget to read our NYC history blog at http://blog.insidetheapple.net