Do you have a Family History Center near you? Microfilm records of DRC are available from them. I am not sure of the exact years. The film I had was in Dutch with very creative spelling, and it took in mostly the mid-to-late 1600's. Good luck, e

Hi Barbara, From: "Barbara de Mare" <barbarademare@yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records >>Thank you, Howard for your wonderful explanation. It is what I believed, but had no time to look up. The question interested me because of the Darmstadt connection. I think I have ancestors from there (although I can't find them off hand), and was wondering how you obtained the records from the Darmstadt church.<< Barbara It was Ethel who mentioned the Darmstadt records. I haven't looked for those records, although I have gotten film from the LDS for a few other German churches' records. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Hi Ethel, From: <ETHELKK@aol.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:18 PM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records > Adam Wanamaker (Jr). son of Adam Wanamaker (Sr) and Dorothea, married Anna > Margaretta and they had six children born in Leeheim, Darmstadt, Germany. I > am trying to find the about date when they emigrated to New York and if they > were part of the 1708 Palatine migration. > > Their eldest son Dietrich, bp 4 Oct 1682 in Leeheim, and Anna Margaret Luz,

Hello, all: How can I view original (or credible images of original) NY RDC baptism records? In particular, I'm looking for children of Johannes Karbile/Carbile/Kerfbyl and Margrietje Provoost on 28 Dec 1718 and 23 Mar 1721. Three known transcriptions give varying combinations of these: Olive Tree Genealogy (http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/church/rdcbapt.shtml) shows the 1718 child as "Joannes" and the 1721 child as "Jonathan". Long Island Genealogy (http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html) shows the 1718 child as "Johannes" (with an "h") and the 1721 child as "Jonathan". An 1895 book (Provost, Andrew J., *Biographical and Genealogical Notes of the Provost Family from 1545 to 1895. New York: unknown, 1895, 159 Pages.) *shows the 1718 child as "Joannes" and the 1721 child as "Johannes" (rather than "Jonathan"). I looked for a microfilm on the LDS website, but unless I missed it, the only film with images of baptisms ends in 1697. To my surprise, the others appear to be transcriptions. Chris

My Dutch ancestors Peter Bowman and Capt. Peter Scholl moved to VA from the Readington NJ area in the mid 1700's and they were connected with the Presbyterian Church of Cooks Creek near Dayton VA. However, at the same time Capt. Peter Scholl was made the guardian of the son of a Dutch Reformed minister who died in that area of VA after having moved from NJ. I can't recall right now the name of the minister. The fact that these previous members of the Dutch Reformed church in NJ went to Presbyterian Churches in VA may have something to do with the language that they spoke. It is a hint that while there parents or grandparents may have spoken only Dutch, they on the other hand were probably speaking mainly English. If they had wanted to attend a church in that area that spoke German they could have associated with the Peaked Mountian German Reformed Church. <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> Check out free AOL at http://free.aol.com/thenewaol/index.adp. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, millions of free high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.

I really enjoyed your message on the Indians and Dabney's. I love anything to do withhistory and htis is something you do not find except in some classrooms. Thank you. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: <c.crosswhite@mchsi.com> To: <Dutch-Colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:17 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels boy > Peter stated that the Indians who captured Evert Pels' boy were probably > Algonquians but he did not know at what age Algonquians usually married. > > Indeed, the Indians were of the Esopus Tribe of Leni Lenape Indians who > were > indeed Algonquians. Just as these Indians called themselves "Lenape," the > Algonquians of Virginia called themselves "Renape." > > I can help somewhat on Algonquian marriage customs in the 17th Century. I > am > descended from Cornelius Dabney and his second wife, Susannah "Swann," who > he > married in 1680. She was half Algonquian, the daughter of Col. Thomas > Swann and > Betty, the daughter of Cockockoske, Queen of Pamunky. Cockockoeske was the > granddaughter of Opechancanough (brother of Powhatan). Susannah was raised > by > her Algonquian mother and the tribe called her Susannah Swann. Thomas > Swann > never recognized her as a daughter but left his fortune to a daughter of > Susannah in his will (without stating that either Susannah or her daughter > were > related to him). > > Susannah was about 15-16 when she married Cornelius, who as a widower was > 49. > The normal age for a Virginia Algonquian girl to marry in the 17th Century > was > 13-15. Virginia Algonquian boys married at about 16. > > The Virginia Department of Historic Resources has prepared a book FIRST > PEOPLE > for classroom use which desribes a typical wedding of a 17th Century > Algonquian > girl of 13 with an Algonquian boy of 16. > > High-status men such as Powhatan and Opechancanough each took a new pair > of > teenage wives every year or two. Descent of rulership was matrilineal, > with only > the first (permanent) wife counting. Among these rulers, the later wives > were > kept only until they bore a child, upon which time the young wife and > child were > established in a high-status house in the village of a tributary tribe and > usually married to a high-status man in that village. Since a male could > only > inherit rulership through a ruling mother, a ruling male hoped that his > sons, > sent to live in tributary villages as described above, would marry > high-status > female rulers whose sons could become rulers. Powhatan, and after his > death, > Opechancanough, each ruled over about 30 tribes each of which had its own > ruler. > It was the object of the Paramount Ruler to have the high-status > individuals of > all the tribes be related to a central ruling family. > > Often this rsulted in girls of 13-15 being married to high-status males in > their > 50's and 60's. Opechancanough was 95-100 years old when he was > assassinated in > Jamestown in 1646. He had been born about 1548, was taken hostage by > Spaniards > in 1560, lived in Mexico and Spain for ten years, came back as interpreter > for a > Jesuit mission in 1570, re-united with his older brother Powhatan, was > given a > pair of young wives by Powhatan upon which he promptly killed the Jesuits > who > had told him he could have only one wife. > > When a high-status Englishman visited a Virginia Algonquian village, he > was > given sumptuous meals, an elegant high-status house for overnight > accomodations > and a young woman to share his bed. This was an intentional mechanism to > bring > genes from high-status Englishmen into the local gene-pool. The villagers > knew > the identities of the English fathers and bestowed the appropriate > father's > surname on the appropriate child. Thus, Queen Cockockoeske had a son named > John > West and her daughter Betty (later Queen Betty ) had the daughter named > Susannah > Swann. Betty was daughter of Cockockoeske by Totopotomoi (a ruler > descended from > the ranking sister of Powhatan and Opechancanough. > > Cornelius Dabney spoke Algonquian and was the official interpreter for > Queen > Cockockoeske in her dealings with King Charles II and the government in > England, > as well as with the Virginia Assembly (later House of Burgesss). King > Charles II > sent a three-man Commission and several ships of soldiers to set things > right > during and following Bacon's Rebellion. The Commissioners lodged at Col. > Thomas > Swann's plantation, Swann's Point. One of these Commissioners became > Acting > Governor, another was in charge of the fleet and the third in charge of > the land > forces. This third Commissioner was a former Governor of Virginia, Francis > Moryson, the father-in-law of Cornelius Dabney. > > Cornelius and Cockockoeske worked up a draft of a treaty which was rather > favorable to Cockockoeske, restoring her to powers previously held by > Powhatan > and later Opechancanough. Francis Moryson edited this draft and presented > it to > the other two Commissioners and it was adopted with minor changes. This > Treaty > of Middle Plantation (1677) is still the basis for the relationship of > these > Indians with the government. > > Early documents of the Jamestown Colony state that the Algonquian women > were > both voluptuous and willing. I recall that Adrian Van Der Donck said > approximately the same concerning the women of the Mohegan Tribe of > Algonquians > in New York, among whom he was a high-status guest. > > Please note that the story of the Esopus Chief's daughter saving the life > of > (Hendrick?) Pels is virtually identical with Pocahontas saving the life of > Captain John Smith. > > Descendants of Cornelius Dabney by his two wives include Patrick Henry > (the > orator and Governor of Virginia), Dolly Madison (wife of President James > Madison), Dabney Carr (brother-in-law of President Thomas Jefferson), > Nancy > Astor (first woman to sit in the British House of Commons), Zacchary > Taylor > (President of the United States), also the wife of President Jefferson > Davis of > the Confedearacy, and many others. > > Best Wishes, > Frank S. Crosswhite > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

For the record, I still have not been provided any explanation as to where Hendrick Vosberg Pels got his middle name "Vosberg" from. Maybe he was not son of Emigrant Evert Evertszen Pels of Stettin, Pomerania, and Emigrant Jannetje Sijmonsen, daughter of Sijmon Floriszen of Amsterdam. The Netherlands. Had Hendrick been son of Evert Evertszen Pels of Stettin, Pomerania, Hendrick would have received the middle name "Evertsen" or "Evertszen". Therefore, I theorize that Hendrick was a Vosberg who resided with or near the Pels family. I have sources stored in my old desktop computer. Jean Boutcher, A descendant of Evert Evertszen Pels JeanBout@Juno.Com JeanBoute@Yahoo.Com

Peter stated that the Indians who captured Evert Pels' boy were probably Algonquians but he did not know at what age Algonquians usually married. Indeed, the Indians were of the Esopus Tribe of Leni Lenape Indians who were indeed Algonquians. Just as these Indians called themselves "Lenape," the Algonquians of Virginia called themselves "Renape." I can help somewhat on Algonquian marriage customs in the 17th Century. I am descended from Cornelius Dabney and his second wife, Susannah "Swann," who he married in 1680. She was half Algonquian, the daughter of Col. Thomas Swann and Betty, the daughter of Cockockoske, Queen of Pamunky. Cockockoeske was the granddaughter of Opechancanough (brother of Powhatan). Susannah was raised by her Algonquian mother and the tribe called her Susannah Swann. Thomas Swann never recognized her as a daughter but left his fortune to a daughter of Susannah in his will (without stating that either Susannah or her daughter were related to him). Susannah was about 15-16 when she married Cornelius, who as a widower was 49. The normal age for a Virginia Algonquian girl to marry in the 17th Century was 13-15. Virginia Algonquian boys married at about 16. The Virginia Department of Historic Resources has prepared a book FIRST PEOPLE for classroom use which desribes a typical wedding of a 17th Century Algonquian girl of 13 with an Algonquian boy of 16. High-status men such as Powhatan and Opechancanough each took a new pair of teenage wives every year or two. Descent of rulership was matrilineal, with only the first (permanent) wife counting. Among these rulers, the later wives were kept only until they bore a child, upon which time the young wife and child were established in a high-status house in the village of a tributary tribe and usually married to a high-status man in that village. Since a male could only inherit rulership through a ruling mother, a ruling male hoped that his sons, sent to live in tributary villages as described above, would marry high-status female rulers whose sons could become rulers. Powhatan, and after his death, Opechancanough, each ruled over about 30 tribes each of which had its own ruler. It was the object of the Paramount Ruler to have the high-status individuals of all the tribes be related to a central ruling family. Often this rsulted in girls of 13-15 being married to high-status males in their 50's and 60's. Opechancanough was 95-100 years old when he was assassinated in Jamestown in 1646. He had been born about 1548, was taken hostage by Spaniards in 1560, lived in Mexico and Spain for ten years, came back as interpreter for a Jesuit mission in 1570, re-united with his older brother Powhatan, was given a pair of young wives by Powhatan upon which he promptly killed the Jesuits who had told him he could have only one wife. When a high-status Englishman visited a Virginia Algonquian village, he was given sumptuous meals, an elegant high-status house for overnight accomodations and a young woman to share his bed. This was an intentional mechanism to bring genes from high-status Englishmen into the local gene-pool. The villagers knew the identities of the English fathers and bestowed the appropriate father's surname on the appropriate child. Thus, Queen Cockockoeske had a son named John West and her daughter Betty (later Queen Betty ) had the daughter named Susannah Swann. Betty was daughter of Cockockoeske by Totopotomoi (a ruler descended from the ranking sister of Powhatan and Opechancanough. Cornelius Dabney spoke Algonquian and was the official interpreter for Queen Cockockoeske in her dealings with King Charles II and the government in England, as well as with the Virginia Assembly (later House of Burgesss). King Charles II sent a three-man Commission and several ships of soldiers to set things right during and following Bacon's Rebellion. The Commissioners lodged at Col. Thomas Swann's plantation, Swann's Point. One of these Commissioners became Acting Governor, another was in charge of the fleet and the third in charge of the land forces. This third Commissioner was a former Governor of Virginia, Francis Moryson, the father-in-law of Cornelius Dabney. Cornelius and Cockockoeske worked up a draft of a treaty which was rather favorable to Cockockoeske, restoring her to powers previously held by Powhatan and later Opechancanough. Francis Moryson edited this draft and presented it to the other two Commissioners and it was adopted with minor changes. This Treaty of Middle Plantation (1677) is still the basis for the relationship of these Indians with the government. Early documents of the Jamestown Colony state that the Algonquian women were both voluptuous and willing. I recall that Adrian Van Der Donck said approximately the same concerning the women of the Mohegan Tribe of Algonquians in New York, among whom he was a high-status guest. Please note that the story of the Esopus Chief's daughter saving the life of (Hendrick?) Pels is virtually identical with Pocahontas saving the life of Captain John Smith. Descendants of Cornelius Dabney by his two wives include Patrick Henry (the orator and Governor of Virginia), Dolly Madison (wife of President James Madison), Dabney Carr (brother-in-law of President Thomas Jefferson), Nancy Astor (first woman to sit in the British House of Commons), Zacchary Taylor (President of the United States), also the wife of President Jefferson Davis of the Confedearacy, and many others. Best Wishes, Frank S. Crosswhite

Judy, You make a very valid point. Glad you raised the matter. Cranbury is an interesting place, I think. Ted -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jacassidy22@aol.com > I really didn't know much about the situation, other than I was searching > for a non-Dutch name and came across this list, comprise of mostly English > names, saw the Dutch ones, and figured I would pass the information along, in > case someone was looking for them and couldn't find them in Dutch Reformed > locations. So hopefully it might help someone out. Thanks for your message > and > information. > > Judy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Judy, Just to amplify a bit on Cranbury church records: there are actually two cemeteries there, one, the Brainerd, belonging to the 1st Presbyterian Church, and the other, the Westminster, which was of the now defunct 2nd Presbyterian. Both of these cemeteries are in excellent condition and stones are readily legible for the most part. There are lots of New Netherland descendants in both of these cemeteries. In addition to the surnames you noted, I would add Conover (var. of Couvenhoven), Gulick, Jernee, Mershon, Perrine,Snedeker (dozens of 'em!), Sutphen, Stults, Van Pelt and, no surprise, Wyckoff. And this is not an exhaustive list, I am sure. There never has been a Reformed Dutch church in Cranbury, and I suppose the Presbyterians were about as theologically comfortable as these Dutch folk could find locally Regards, Ted Snediker -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jacassidy22@aol.com > RECORDS OF THE > FIRST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH > CRANBURY, [MIDDLESEX CO.], NJ > 1744-1891 > > BAPTISMS, 1745 to 1805 > > Not many Dutch attended this church, however here are some Dutch names which > appear in the mostly English congregation: > > Lamiety ch. of John Vanarsdalen, 2 May 1748 > Gerret s/o Lucas Covenhoven 25 Apr 1753 > Sarah d/o Cornelius Voorhees 13 May 1755 > Mariah d/o Luke Smock 22 June 1755 > Hendrick s/o Andrew Voorhees 27 Mar 1758 > Mary d/o Ram Vanderbeek 21 /dec, 1790 > Sarah may be d/o Ram Vanderbeek, no dates > Mary d/o Grocum & Vanarsdalen, no dates, no first names. > Richard s/o John and Charity Vansant 11 Feb. 1791 > James s.o John and Mary Vansant 11 Feb. 1791 > > Since I was there looking for someone else, thought I would just copy these > and pass them along. > > Judy Cassidy > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When the Low Dutch came to Ky. in 1780 they had trouble getting a Dutch Reformed minister and they became Presbyterians. I think they were sad to do so, but could not find help from anyplace. My Dutch names were Van Voorhees, Montfort (French Huguenots), Banta, & a lot of others. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Dutch Names in these Church Records. > Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed are very closely theologically wise, > this is why you will find the Dutch and English in vice versa in many > areas. > > David Samuelsen > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

More on the age of the Evert Pels boy. In the book "Documents relative to the history and settlement of the towns along the Mohawk" by B. Fernow, Vol. XIII and on page 143, there is a letter written by Derck Smit, Ensign, describing a try to ransom the boy of Evert Pels. It mentions that "the boy has a wife there and the wife is with child, who will not let him go and he will not leave her" It was written Feb. 24, 1660 at Esopus. He was taken captive Sept. 21, 1659. The announcement of the try at ransom would be five months later. So sometime in that time frame, there was a ceremony and then a conception. I am wondering if there are other records of Ulster, or Wildwyck that would have more information written at that time? I think I have gone through what little I can find in this area. LeemaeGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Thanks Ted, Other than passing it by occassionally on the Turnpike, I really have not done any research in that area of NJ. Judy

Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed are very closely theologically wise, this is why you will find the Dutch and English in vice versa in many areas. David Samuelsen

I really didn't know much about the situation, other than I was searching for a non-Dutch name and came across this list, comprise of mostly English names, saw the Dutch ones, and figured I would pass the information along, in case someone was looking for them and couldn't find them in Dutch Reformed locations. So hopefully it might help someone out. Thanks for your message and information. Judy

Leemae, I don't know if you've seen this online version of a 1913 pamphlet about the whole affair: http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ny/state/bios/fg/vosburgh001.txt It would appear that, at least 100 years ago, there was a lot of surviving correspondence relating to the incident; it's simply a matter of locating the relevant passages in the letters and journals of Stuyvesant, Montagne and Ensign Smidt. (I'll pause while you laugh hysterically.) The pamphlet claims Evert Pels was killed in the same attack in which his "boy" was abducted which would help explain the youth's presence in the first place. As for the part about the boy's choosing to remain with the indians, there seem to have been several well-documented instances of this over the years. I'm most familiar with one in about 1860 in which a 10 year old boy named Reuben Van Ornum was abducted following the massacre of a wagon train in Idaho. By the time his uncle Zacheus Van Ornum found him four years later he had completely assimilated Indian culture. According to tradition he returned to the tribe after a couple of unhappy years of "civilization". (In an example of how people haven't really changed all that much, Uncle Zacheus tried to sue the government for all the time he spent looking for the boy.) --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "l. s." <lemaes63@msn.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels boy > > Hello again, > Thanks for all the replies. > I guess my problem is that the boy is not given a name in the records I have seen. Yet, online when I looked up the Pels family, some Pels researchers gave him the name of Hendrick and a possible birth year. I would like to know what record they found that in. I accepted that he must have been the eldest child, if he was a son to Evert. He made the girl pregnant in 1659. His parents were married Dec. of 1641. If he was born in 1642, he would have been around seventeen in 1659. I don't see how he could have been much younger than that, and still be allowed to go out with other men as an escort during a then escalation in the war. > I don't know if Native Americans recorded marriages. I wonder if his "parents" made an effort to bring him back to them, since he would have been so young? I would have been devastated, if he had been my child. I suppose you weren't a child long in that era. What a mystery. > > Howard, I had wondered about the servant to Evert angle myself. He did hire people to work for him. Wolfert Nys being one of them, whom Evert hired in 1643. But, he was to work only two years. > > I wish they hadn't just called him boy. But, he definitely is connected by historical records as belonging to Evert in some way. Could later writers have just assumed he was a son? I know there are people out there who know so much more than I do about historical records, I was hoping someone may know something more definitive about this. Maybe someone has settled the question? I am not sure what to do with him in my own write-up of the family. I'd love to keep him, simply because of the drama? > Thanks again, > Leemae > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:19 PM > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 54 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Evert Pels "boy" (l. s.) > 2. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Donna Stark) > 3. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Howard Swain) > 4. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Howard Swain) > 5. Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (ETHELKK@aol.com) > 6. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Donna Stark) > 7. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Agnes Mitchell) > 8. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Chris Schopfer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:14:00 -0500 > From: "Donna Stark" <donnaStarkKy@fewpb.net> > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <003501c75380$2ed07080$494676cc@D2JJ4771> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > In that time period it was not unusual for a young boy to take a wife. Girls > even married at 12, 13 and 14, so take that into consideration. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:03:35 -0800 > From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <009a01c753b9$6d14bfc0$c600f604@Howard600m> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi Leemae, > > From: "l. s." <lemaes63@msn.com> > To: "dutch" <Dutch-Colonies-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:41 AM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" > > > > Hello, > > I am wondering if anyone knows any more about this person. I am wondering how the name Hendrick was given to this "boy" The one who was taken captive by the Indians in 1659. It was written he took a wife among the Indians. But, looking at the possible birth day for this boy, he would probably be only 16-17 years old. His parents married Dec. 1641. Even if he was an early baby, he would be quite young to take a bride. Is it possible he may have been called Pels "boy", because he was a young boy who worked for Evert? And yet, he seems to have been given a name. Who has that record? > > How were possible birth dates given to Everts children. I have only found three that were baptized. I kind of was guessing on some of them, by checking the possible marriage dates and subtracting 18-20. I would love to have better church records or family Bible records. > > Thanks for any information, > > > When Evert Pels came on Den Houttuyn in 1642 he came with his wife > and "his servant". This is from a memo that Van Rensselaer wrote for > Megapolensis (who was also on the ship). The name of Evert Pels' > servant is not shown. See VRBM p. 609. > > Also, the Notarial Records abstracted in New Netherland Connections vols 4 and 5 > do not show the engagement by Pels of a servant in the months before departure. > > Could this servant have been the "boy" you refer to? > Is the only name you have for him Hendrick? No patronymic or surname? > You mention "It was written he took a wife...." Where is this written? > And does that place have only the single name "Hendrick" for him? > Or does it call him Hendrick Pels? > (Note: David Riker's Directory does not show a son Hendrick for Evert Pels.) > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

RECORDS OF THE FIRST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH CRANBURY, [MIDDLESEX CO.], NJ 1744-1891 BAPTISMS, 1745 to 1805 Not many Dutch attended this church, however here are some Dutch names which appear in the mostly English congregation: Lamiety ch. of John Vanarsdalen, 2 May 1748 Gerret s/o Lucas Covenhoven 25 Apr 1753 Sarah d/o Cornelius Voorhees 13 May 1755 Mariah d/o Luke Smock 22 June 1755 Hendrick s/o Andrew Voorhees 27 Mar 1758 Mary d/o Ram Vanderbeek 21 /dec, 1790 Sarah may be d/o Ram Vanderbeek, no dates Mary d/o Grocum & Vanarsdalen, no dates, no first names. Richard s/o John and Charity Vansant 11 Feb. 1791 James s.o John and Mary Vansant 11 Feb. 1791 Since I was there looking for someone else, thought I would just copy these and pass them along. Judy Cassidy

The following is a quote from a publication "The Ancestry of Garret Conrad VanWagenen in the Five Collateral Line of Pells" published in 1946 by Frank L. VanWagenen. "Son Hendrick Vosberg Pels was captured by Indians in a raid along with several others. When they were rescued he refused to accompany them home having decided to remain with the Indian girl he "married". What became of him is not recorded. Some doubt the veracity of this statement." The information I have goes on: "A study of correspondence between various persons living in the Esopus, with the Governor of New New Netherlands reveals Pel';s (Evert Evertson Pels husband of Jasnnetje Sijmons) part in an unfortunate episode with the Indians. On the night of Sept 20, 1659, a group of Indians, eight in number, having worked all day shelling corn for one of the settlers, succeeded in obtaining a quantity of liquor upon which they became drunk. Late that night they made their way to the stockade, and created a disturbance of such proportions that many of the settlers became enraged. A group of eight or ten of their number, including Pels, attacked the Indians with musket and axe, seriously wounding several, and drove them off. All evidence points to the fact that the settlers were entirely unjustified in their actions, and it is not surprising that i brought to a head the long smoldering hatred and distrust which had existed for a long time between the Indians and settlers. Ensign Smith, in command of a detachment of soldiers which had been sent to protect the settlement, made plans to return immediately to New Amsterdam with his men, as a protest against the unwarranted action of the settlers. He was prevented from doing so, by a ruse, and sent a messenger, Sept 21 to New Amsterdam with news of the outbreak. The messenger was escorted to the river by an armed guard of several men, including a few villagers, on of them was Pels' son. On their return from the river they were set upon by the Indians, most if not all of them, being captured. Besieging the fort with about 500 men and failing to capture it after several days the Indians in retaliation for the attack of Sept 30, forced eight or nine of their captives to run the gauntlet. Those who survived this and subsequent beatings, were burned at the stake. Five escaped this fate, two by ransom, one by exchange, one by escape and Pel's son who was later adopted by the tribe. (See Docs. v 13, pp 114-121). Pels' son was said to have taken an Indian wife, and to have had children by her. In commenting on this Sylvester in his History of Ulster County Part 1 page 39 adds that by virtue of Pels' son having lived with the Indians, and of having taken one of their number for a wife the Pells Family have as much right to boast of as the descendants of Pocahontas" Various histories have included in their contents accounts of the foregoing. Among them are Schoonmaker's History of Kinston, NY; Sylvester's mentioned above and O'Callaghan's History of New Netherlands vol 2 pp 394-397 I presume this is the occasion referred to in the quotes below. This matter has little to do with the age of consent for marriage, since it was not a civil marriage, Indians did not recognize civil marriage then, why would they? The impression given in the quotes was that he stayed with them long enough to have several children so this did not happen over night, and the exact date of his birth is lost in the mists of time, it is suggested he was born in about 1645, but he could have lived with the Indians for many years As far as the history of the Pels family goes, I have the boys name recorded as Hendrick Vosberg Pel's and show he had an older sister named Annetje. If they followed the usual naming system that would put Anna as the mother of Evert and Hendrick as the given name of his father. I do not yet have those details, does anyone? The couple did not seem to have followed conventional naming patterns at all, we have Jannetje's siblings and there is no pattern there either. And where did the surname "Pels" come from? - tons of unanswered questions here! This we do have as the earliest document about Evert Everest Pels and his wife: THE MARRIAGE OF EVERT PELS, Contributed by Robert G. Cooney, Jr (appeared in April 1991 NYG&B Record) "With the assistance of John VanWeezep, the following records were found at the Family History Center SLC: Appeared as before Evert Everts Pels from Statijn, sailor, aged 25 years, living in the Hasselaersteeg, having no parents {living in Amsterdam}, accompanied by his uncle Pieter Smit, and Jannetje Sijmon’s daughter, aged 18 years, living in the same place, accompanied by her mother Diavrtje. 31 {sic} November 1641. (Amsterdam film 1132051, Vol 475 Huwelijks Aangifte {Marriage intentions for all Dutch Reformed Churches in the city}.) Agnes VWC On Feb 19, 2007, at 1:02 AM, dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > The issue here is a boy who was living among Indians (I assume > Algonquins) > and at what age did males wed in that society? I haven't the > faintest idea, > but I certainly cannot say without study whether 17 was too young. > > Among the colonial Dutch in the 17th century, the normal age for > marriage > was 21 for males and 18 for females. If a girl was as young as 16 > when she > married, she was most likely pregnant. If she were younger than > that, the > ----snip--- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Donna Stark" <donnaStarkKy@fewpb.net> > >> In that time period it was not unusual for a young boy to take a >> wife. >> Girls >> even married at 12, 13 and 14, so take that into consideration. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "l. s." <lemaes63@msn.com> >> >> >>> Hello, >>> I am wondering if anyone knows any more about this person. I am >>> wondering >>> how the name Hendrick was given to this "boy" The one who was taken >>> captive by the Indians in 1659. It was written he took a wife >>> among the >>> Indians. But, looking at the possible birth day for this boy, he >>> would >>> probably be only 16-17 years old. His parents married Dec. 1641. >>> Even if >>> he was an early baby, he would be quite young to take a bride. Is it >>> possible he may have been called Pels "boy", ----snip---

Hello again, Thanks for all the replies. I guess my problem is that the boy is not given a name in the records I have seen. Yet, online when I looked up the Pels family, some Pels researchers gave him the name of Hendrick and a possible birth year. I would like to know what record they found that in. I accepted that he must have been the eldest child, if he was a son to Evert. He made the girl pregnant in 1659. His parents were married Dec. of 1641. If he was born in 1642, he would have been around seventeen in 1659. I don't see how he could have been much younger than that, and still be allowed to go out with other men as an escort during a then escalation in the war. I don't know if Native Americans recorded marriages. I wonder if his "parents" made an effort to bring him back to them, since he would have been so young? I would have been devastated, if he had been my child. I suppose you weren't a child long in that era. What a mystery. Howard, I had wondered about the servant to Evert angle myself. He did hire people to work for him. Wolfert Nys being one of them, whom Evert hired in 1643. But, he was to work only two years. I wish they hadn't just called him boy. But, he definitely is connected by historical records as belonging to Evert in some way. Could later writers have just assumed he was a son? I know there are people out there who know so much more than I do about historical records, I was hoping someone may know something more definitive about this. Maybe someone has settled the question? I am not sure what to do with him in my own write-up of the family. I'd love to keep him, simply because of the drama? Thanks again, Leemae ----- Original Message ----- From: dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:19 PM To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 54 Today's Topics: 1. Evert Pels "boy" (l. s.) 2. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Donna Stark) 3. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Howard Swain) 4. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Howard Swain) 5. Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (ETHELKK@aol.com) 6. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Donna Stark) 7. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Agnes Mitchell) 8. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Chris Schopfer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:14:00 -0500 From: "Donna Stark" <donnaStarkKy@fewpb.net> Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <003501c75380$2ed07080$494676cc@D2JJ4771> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original In that time period it was not unusual for a young boy to take a wife. Girls even married at 12, 13 and 14, so take that into consideration. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:03:35 -0800 From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <009a01c753b9$6d14bfc0$c600f604@Howard600m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Leemae, From: "l. s." <lemaes63@msn.com> To: "dutch" <Dutch-Colonies-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:41 AM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" > Hello, > I am wondering if anyone knows any more about this person. I am wondering how the name Hendrick was given to this "boy" The one who was taken captive by the Indians in 1659. It was written he took a wife among the Indians. But, looking at the possible birth day for this boy, he would probably be only 16-17 years old. His parents married Dec. 1641. Even if he was an early baby, he would be quite young to take a bride. Is it possible he may have been called Pels "boy", because he was a young boy who worked for Evert? And yet, he seems to have been given a name. Who has that record? > How were possible birth dates given to Everts children. I have only found three that were baptized. I kind of was guessing on some of them, by checking the possible marriage dates and subtracting 18-20. I would love to have better church records or family Bible records. > Thanks for any information, When Evert Pels came on Den Houttuyn in 1642 he came with his wife and "his servant". This is from a memo that Van Rensselaer wrote for Megapolensis (who was also on the ship). The name of Evert Pels' servant is not shown. See VRBM p. 609. Also, the Notarial Records abstracted in New Netherland Connections vols 4 and 5 do not show the engagement by Pels of a servant in the months before departure. Could this servant have been the "boy" you refer to? Is the only name you have for him Hendrick? No patronymic or surname? You mention "It was written he took a wife...." Where is this written? And does that place have only the single name "Hendrick" for him? Or does it call him Hendrick Pels? (Note: David Riker's Directory does not show a son Hendrick for Evert Pels.) Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

What I have on this child I got from this group if I recall correctly. I have Hendrick Vosberg Pels, born 145, second child (first son) of Evert Pels. 1659 I have as his death date--the date I am know hearing he was captured by the Indians. As A direct descendant of Every Pels, I would love better information on this family. All my information on this "Pels boy" is from Jean Boutcher, "[Dutch Colonies] 24 June 2006. Although I seldom use e-mail messages as a source, or research seemed sufficiently well done to use it as a starting point. My descent is through sister Sara who married Jacob Aartsen Van Wagenen. I have various other records cited as sources for other siblings, including New York RDC records, Kingston RDC records, F.E. Weeks, Genealogy of the Fish and Van Wagenen & Van Wagner Families; Howard Morse, Historic Old Rhinebeck; Robert W. Hull NYG&B Record article Jan 2006, Proving the Nine Children of Arie Aldertzs Roosa of Kingston (Howard--I have your e-mail on the topic in the magazine with the article); Van Wagenen Family Bible; Carl Van Wagenen's book on Jacob Aaertsen Van Wagenen as well as information he has sent me in e-mails. The only one of the nine children of Evert Pels listed in my datatbase with a source of only Jean Boutcher is Hendrick Vosberg Pels. Any more light which can be shed on this individual would certainly be appreciated. Barbara "l. s." <lemaes63@msn.com> wrote: Hello again, Thanks for all the replies. I guess my problem is that the boy is not given a name in the records I have seen. Yet, online when I looked up the Pels family, some Pels researchers gave him the name of Hendrick and a possible birth year. I would like to know what record they found that in. I accepted that he must have been the eldest child, if he was a son to Evert. He made the girl pregnant in 1659. His parents were married Dec. of 1641. If he was born in 1642, he would have been around seventeen in 1659. I don't see how he could have been much younger than that, and still be allowed to go out with other men as an escort during a then escalation in the war. I don't know if Native Americans recorded marriages. I wonder if his "parents" made an effort to bring him back to them, since he would have been so young? I would have been devastated, if he had been my child. I suppose you weren't a child long in that era. What a mystery. Howard, I had wondered about the servant to Evert angle myself. He did hire people to work for him. Wolfert Nys being one of them, whom Evert hired in 1643. But, he was to work only two years. I wish they hadn't just called him boy. But, he definitely is connected by historical records as belonging to Evert in some way. Could later writers have just assumed he was a son? I know there are people out there who know so much more than I do about historical records, I was hoping someone may know something more definitive about this. Maybe someone has settled the question? I am not sure what to do with him in my own write-up of the family. I'd love to keep him, simply because of the drama? Thanks again, Leemae ----- Original Message ----- From: dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:19 PM To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 54 Today's Topics: 1. Evert Pels "boy" (l. s.) 2. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Donna Stark) 3. Re: Evert Pels "boy" (Howard Swain) 4. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Howard Swain) 5. Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (ETHELKK@aol.com) 6. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Donna Stark) 7. Re: Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records (Agnes Mitchell) 8. Re: Location of Wolster/Welster? (Chris Schopfer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:14:00 -0500 From: "Donna Stark" Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" To: Message-ID: <003501c75380$2ed07080$494676cc@D2JJ4771> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original In that time period it was not unusual for a young boy to take a wife. Girls even married at 12, 13 and 14, so take that into consideration. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:03:35 -0800 From: "Howard Swain" Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" To: Message-ID: <009a01c753b9$6d14bfc0$c600f604@Howard600m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Leemae, From: "l. s." To: "dutch" Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:41 AM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Evert Pels "boy" > Hello, > I am wondering if anyone knows any more about this person. I am wondering how the name Hendrick was given to this "boy" The one who was taken captive by the Indians in 1659. It was written he took a wife among the Indians. But, looking at the possible birth day for this boy, he would probably be only 16-17 years old. His parents married Dec. 1641. Even if he was an early baby, he would be quite young to take a bride. Is it possible he may have been called Pels "boy", because he was a young boy who worked for Evert? And yet, he seems to have been given a name. Who has that record? > How were possible birth dates given to Everts children. I have only found three that were baptized. I kind of was guessing on some of them, by checking the possible marriage dates and subtracting 18-20. I would love to have better church records or family Bible records. > Thanks for any information, When Evert Pels came on Den Houttuyn in 1642 he came with his wife and "his servant". This is from a memo that Van Rensselaer wrote for Megapolensis (who was also on the ship). The name of Evert Pels' servant is not shown. See VRBM p. 609. Also, the Notarial Records abstracted in New Netherland Connections vols 4 and 5 do not show the engagement by Pels of a servant in the months before departure. Could this servant have been the "boy" you refer to? Is the only name you have for him Hendrick? No patronymic or surname? You mention "It was written he took a wife...." Where is this written? And does that place have only the single name "Hendrick" for him? Or does it call him Hendrick Pels? (Note: David Riker's Directory does not show a son Hendrick for Evert Pels.) Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. Historian, genealogist and attorney 155 Polifly Road Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 (201) 567-9440 office BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/

Thank you, Howard for your wonderful explanation. It is what I believed, but had no time to look up. The question interested me because of the Darmstadt connection. I think I have ancestors from there (although I can't find them off hand), and was wondering how you obtained the records from the Darmstadt church. Barbara Howard Swain <hswain@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Hi Ethel, From: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:18 PM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Wanamaker - Rev Kocherthal records > Adam Wanamaker (Jr). son of Adam Wanamaker (Sr) and Dorothea, married Anna > Margaretta and they had six children born in Leeheim, Darmstadt, Germany. I > am trying to find the about date when they emigrated to New York and if they > were part of the 1708 Palatine migration. > > Their eldest son Dietrich, bp 4 Oct 1682 in Leeheim, and Anna Margaret Luz, > were supposedly married January 1709 by the Rev. J. Kocherthal. I have > the West Camp Lutheran Church, NY records by Rev. Kocherthal and the marriage > is not recorded in the records. Their first child Michael bp 27 Aug 1710 > is entered on page 17. > > If they were married January 1709, would they be included in the first > migration in 1708. Is there a list of the 1708 Palatines. > > Ethel > > Source: The Book of Names Especially Relating to the Early Palatines and the > First Settlers in the Mohawk Valley. Compiled and Arranged by Lou D MacWethy > Gen Pub Co 1969 Among the many records are the Rev Joshua Kocherthal > records. [A good book if you have Palatine ancestors.] The 1708 list is pretty short and the Wanamakers are not on it. See CDNY vol 4, pp 52-53. Your best source for Palatines to New York would be Henry Z. Jones' three books. In particular his book, Even More Palatine FAmilies, vol. 3 has the best version of the Hunter subsistence lists of 1710 to 1713. This site has has, I believe, used those lists to reconstruct some passenger lists. http://www.progenealogists.com/palproject/ny/index.html Your "Johann Dietrich Wannemacher, 27, and Anna Margaretha (Lüz)" are shown on the Fifth list. Apparently they are first listed on the 1 July 1710 subsistence list. So, they probably arrived a little bit before that (you'd have to check when the next earlier payment was). Kocherthal's records from the Book of Names are online here: http://threerivershms.com/nameskocherthal.htm I don't see the marriage you mention. And the date seems impossible based on the subsistence lists. So, what was your source of "supposedly married January 1709 by the Rev. J. Kocherthal"? Something else in MacWethy's book? Beware, people can make mistakes re. dates. Perhaps your Jan 1709 should be Jan 1709/10. However, as they apparently were part of the large 1710 migration, be aware that those people got on board ship in London in Dec of 1709 and sat on board until they finally left Plymouth on 10 April 1710. Another good book on the Palatine migration is: Early Eighteenth Century Palatine Emigration by Walter Allen Knittle. According to him (see pp 43-46), although Rev. K. returned to London in 1709, he did not lead nor was part of the 1710 migration. Indeed, looking at his records here: http://threerivershms.com/nameskocherthal.htm it does not appear he could have been on one of those ships. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. Historian, genealogist and attorney 155 Polifly Road Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 (201) 567-9440 office BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/