Hi, In my research I have run across many indentures for children to be bound out to another person to learn a trade. This was mostly for children whose father had died and the mother could not take care of all the children. Some of them were orphans and had to be placed somewhere. The judge doing this said they were to learn the mystery of farming, blacksmithing, tanning, anything which the person taking the child had a business. They were to teach the arithmetics to three, feed and clothe and house them. When they reached the age to be freed from this indenture they were to be given a suit of clothing and several other things to get them started in their life. This gave many children help to learn a trade. The age had nothing to do with it, only the fact that the mother or father , if they were very poor or if father or mother had died and they wanted the child to be taught a trade. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Legal age > Hi Elizabeth, > > From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:28 PM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Legal age > > >> Does anyone know the legal age of an adult in New Netherlands? This is in >> relation to an endenture. When would a child no longer need a parent for >> this step? If no one knows specifically, can anyone refer me to a >> general source of law in the period < > > > Are you talking about the case in which a child would be, say, apprenticed > to someone for a period of years? And the situation would be covered by > a contract called an indenture? > > I believe that the indenture would spell out the number of years: > 3 years, 5 years, whatever. For example, from Black's Law Dictionary, 1st > ed. (1891): > "Indenture of apprenticeship. A contract in two parts, by which > a person, generally a minor, is bound to serve another in his trade, art, > or occupation for a stated time, on condition of being instructed in > the same." > > I'm not sure what you mean by "no longer need a parent for this step". > What step? When they reached the end of the agreed upon period, > then the indenture was over. I suppose if they were not of full age > then, they might still need a guardian. > > I agree with Peter that under the Roman-Dutch law, the age when a > man had full rights was 25. But as he mentions, there some things > that occured earlier. For example, to be "able to bear arms" a > young man had to be only 16. Also, he could be taxed at 16, as > I recall. > > My gut feel is that indentures of apprenticeship usually were set > to run until the boy was about 21. > One place to get some actual data is in the book The Burghers > of New Amsterdam and the Freemen of New York. This is vol 18 > of Collections of the New-York Historical Society (1885). > In the back on pp. 565 to 622 are shown a large number of > indentures of apprenticeship. These cover 1695 to 1708. > > Here's two examples: In 1703, Edward Garnum, age 10, was apprenticed > to William Haywood, shipwright, for 11 years. [ibid. p. 606] > > In 1698, William Evans aged 14 was apprenticed to Abraham Splinter, > cordwainor, tanner, and currier for 5 1/2 years. Mr. Splinter also > at the end had to provide William with 2 suits of clothes and he had > to be taught to read, write, and cypher as far as the Rule of three.[p. > 578] > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Dutch Privateers. Can anyone help me locate info on Dutch Privateers? Specifically, I am looking for one of my ancestors' ships. Jan Jansen Wanshaer was part owner in 'La Grace" a frigate from 1644 sailing from New Amsterdam. Thank you. Allan Kaufmann ----- Original Message ----- From: dutch-colonies-request@rootsweb.com Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: DUTCH-COLONIES Digest, Vol 2, Issue 93 To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Christening - only ships? (Elizabeth Johnson) > 2. Re: Christening - only ships? (Donna Stark) > 3. Re: Christening - only ships? (Elizabeth Johnson) > 4. Re: Baptism correct term (Roland Elliott) > 5. Re: Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch (Elizabeth Johnson) > 6. Re: Christening - only ships? (MScheffler) > 7. Re: Christening/Baptism (Genealogy) > 8. Re: Christening - only ships? (Marlou322@aol.com) > 9. Re: Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > (Jacassidy22@aol.com) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:26:32 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > Dedication is normally used in the sense of dedicating the child and > his or her life to Christ. In the usual sense, it is not a ceremony > in itself but instead a reason and purpose attached to the ceremony. > > The first usage of which I am aware if the word "Christening" was > associated with the Methodist Church. > > Barbara & George Grenier <grenier@earthlink.net> wrote: > I have heard the term, baby dedication. I always thought it was > probably > in churches that didn't baptize babies. > > Barbara > > > > At 11:28 PM 3/9/07, you wrote: > >I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > >baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > > >are christened. > >I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then > they > >are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Donna Stark" <donnaStarkKy@fewpb.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:31:17 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > In the Baptist Church we dedicate a baby at a month or more of age. > Usually > the baby is given its first New Testament with its name on it. This > is to > say we will rear the child in a Christian Home. When the child > reaches an > age to understand that Jesus is our hope for eternity, then he > accepts this, > joins the church and is baptised. Usually this happens at the age of > 9-14. > The person who joins the church comes down the aisle to the pastor, > and the > congregation says "Yes" that we will help the child in the growth of > > Christianity. > > Donna > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara & George Grenier" <grenier@earthlink.net> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:17 AM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > > > >I have heard the term, baby dedication. I always thought it was probably > > in churches that didn't baptize babies. > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > At 11:28 PM 3/9/07, you wrote: > >>I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > >>baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > >>are christened. > >>I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and > then they > >>are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:35:49 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by each > religious group and what we have read here, written by some who have > stated the case much better that I, there is a theological difference > in some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and > they cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As > the product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the > Catholic Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being > christened. My husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC > and the descendant of more members of the RDC than I can count, has > not heard of christening being used in that particular group. This > all goes back to the suggestion that we adhere to the usage by the > particular group about which we write which I believe to be an > excellent idea. > > MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism > are the same thing. Protestant churches who > baptize adults usually call the church ceremony for children > "Dedication" > when the parents and witnesses stand up in front of the church > congregation > and promise to raise children in whatever Christian church it is. > Usually > the congregation takes a vow as well to assist the parents in the process. > > Margaret Scheffler > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > > I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > > baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children > are > > christened. > > I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and > then they > > are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Roland Elliott" <rolandelliott@inreach.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:45 -0800 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term > I would say you can't spell as everybody knows it is potatoes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. S. Balch" <asbalch@hal-pc.org> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:09 AM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term > > > This is sort of a "you say 'poe-TAY-toe' I say 'poe-TAH-toe'" thing. > Different denominations of the Christrian faith have their own terminology > and definitions. One just goes with whatever his/her own denomination > prefers. > > As far as I am concerned, there is no correct/wrong terminology; just > use > what is the practice of your particular church. > > Adrian > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Elizabeth Johnson <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:17:12 -0800 (PST) > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > Hi Ray and others, I ran into this when I was compiling a genealogy > in which the forebearers were DRC and there was a choice in the > program I was using of christening or baptism. I agree that > technically the words are the same but usage within a religious group > has changes this somewhat. Christening is never used in reference to > the baptismal ceremony in some churches and baptism is not used in > others specifically when the ceremony involves an infant. It is then > called Christening and sometimes Sprinkling with baptism a ceremony to > occur at an age at which the child has some comprehension of the > meaning. In the last e-mail, I was addressing only the Roman Catholic > Church practice about which the writer said her RC grandchildren were > christened. In the RC doctrine in the past, the concept of "Original > Sin" and the birth of a child with this "stigma" was paramount. In > the past, the belief and doctrine were that the unbaptised child would > have been condemned to > "Purgatory" and unable to enter the "Kingdom of Heaven" because of > the "stain of original sin" with which he or she was born. The usage > in the Roman Catholic Church was always baptism. This belief has > changed and Purgatory abolished. However, Christening was associated > with Protestant groups. Even though the dictionary gives them as > synonyms, I don't believe that religious groups so view the > terminology. I have no doubt of what was said by the lady discussing > her grandchildren and their Catholic Christening. However, this usage > suggests a mixed marriage and background where the family itself has > exchanged the words. The other words, Sponsor and Witness, are viewed > by some as synonymous but they serve a very different purpose. > > I would suggest that anyone needing the correct terminology for any > specific religious group, adhere to the terminology used in the > records of that group. In the DRC records, I have seen this ceremony > referred to only as Baptism and what many call sponsors, only as > witnesses. > > > > Ray C <raycapp@optonline.net> wrote: > Sorry, but Christening and Baptizing are the same rite. I believe > the verb > christen means to make a person a part of Christendom. > > The New Collegiate dictionary presents Baptize as the first meaning of > Christen. > > Ray C > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara de > Mare > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:24 PM > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > Children are baptized; ships are christened. > > Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. > Historian, genealogist and attorney > 155 Polifly Road > Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 > (201) 567-9440 office > BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) > http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Helen Graves > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2007 6:48:22 PM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > I have received group sheets from other researchers which have stated > "chr. > Kingston Reformed Dutch Church" on them. > > >From the recent discussion, what is the acceptable or most used term > for > listing baptisms at early Reformed Dutch churches on family group sheets? > > "bp. RDC Kingston" - would that work? Or is there some other > terminology and > > abbreviation to use? > > I want to be correct and consistent on my group sheets for listing > the > baptism and the church where baptized. > > Helen > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "MScheffler" <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:04:05 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > I actually agree with you Liz that some churches are very clear > cut on > their use of the terms and much more specific about the theological > definition of the words than are others. > > But if the average person says they are going to a baptism or > christening, we all have a general idea of what is meant, though we > may not > understand the specific nuance of that person's interpretation or of > the > particular brand of Christianity to which they subscribe. I would > assume we > might give as almost many interpretations as we have list members <g> > > Certainly baptism in my denomination -- the United Church of > Christ has > a different theological definition than say in the Catholic Church. > And it > would appear from this thread that the RDC has very specific > interpretations > of the meaning of baptism. I guess I would have expected the > Reformed > Churches to approach baptism like the Presbyterian Church with which > I have > experience(I have learned something). Though, for most practical > purposes > there is probably not a single denomination whose members would not > give a > wide range of what they think the rite or sacrament or ceremony means. > > For genealogical purposes whether a person chooses the term > Christen or > Baptism probably does not really matter except in genealogical data > entry I > like to use terms that I think the particular family might have used. > I > myself almost always use baptism because that is what I grew up using. > > I do know that many of the descendants from my own Dutch heritage > were > members of the Presbyterian Church. My family became Baptist. > > Margaret Scheffler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> > ? > > > > The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by > each > > religious group and what we have read here, written by some who > have > > stated the case much better that I, there is a theological > difference in > > some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and > they > > cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As the > > > product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the > Catholic > > Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being christened. > My > > husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC and the > descendant of > > more members of the RDC than I can count, has not heard of > christening > > being used in that particular group. This all goes back to the > suggestion > > that we adhere to the usage by the particular group about which we > write > > which I believe to be an excellent idea. > > > MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism > are the > > same thing. Protestant churches who baptize adults usually call the > church > > ceremony for children "Dedication" when the parents and witnesses > stand > > up in front of the church congregation and promise to raise > children in > > whatever Christian church it is. Usually the congregation takes a > vow as > > well to assist the parents in the process. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "Genealogy" <genealogy@cfrobbins.com> > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:51:18 -0500 > To <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening/Baptism > Just to throw in my 2 cents worth.. > Having different religions in the same family tree. I had the same > question > growing up. The answer I was told by the clergy. > Different religions have different terms for the same rite. Baptism > is the > same as Christening. "the blessing of the child and washing away of > > original sin" > > Faye > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Marlou322@aol.com > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:04:29 EST > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > This conversation is interesting, but enough already, I had 65 e-mails > today > and a least half of them were about this subject. Can we get back to > > genealogy, and anyone can use whatever term they are comfortable with > in their > family. Marion > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers > free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From Jacassidy22@aol.com > Date Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:54:02 EST > To dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > I am Catholic and we "baptize" our children or adults, the word > Christening > is not used in our Church, at least here in PA that I am familiar with. > > Judy > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers > free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > To contact the DUTCH-COLONIES list administrator, send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the DUTCH-COLONIES mailing list, send an email > to DUTCH-COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the > email with no additional text. >

I agree. None of us agree on Christening or Baptism. Let's change the subject. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: <Marlou322@aol.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > This conversation is interesting, but enough already, I had 65 e-mails > today > and a least half of them were about this subject. Can we get back to > genealogy, and anyone can use whatever term they are comfortable with in > their > family. Marion > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

The legal age of an adult male was 25. For a woman I think it was 18. However, independence for a male and marriage for a female were considerations in permitting younger people to "act adult." Much as today when you can vote when you're 18, but not drink until you're 21 -- which is the age of adulthood? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Legal age > Does anyone know the legal age of an adult in New Netherlands? This is in > relation to an endenture. When would a child no longer need a parent for > this step? If no one knows specifically, can anyone refer me to a general > source of law in the period > > Elizabeth > > > > ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

A-a-a-m, A-a-men, A-a-men, A-men

Hi Elizabeth, From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Legal age > Does anyone know the legal age of an adult in New Netherlands? This is in relation to an endenture. When would a child no longer need a parent for this step? If no one knows specifically, can anyone refer me to a general source of law in the period < Are you talking about the case in which a child would be, say, apprenticed to someone for a period of years? And the situation would be covered by a contract called an indenture? I believe that the indenture would spell out the number of years: 3 years, 5 years, whatever. For example, from Black's Law Dictionary, 1st ed. (1891): "Indenture of apprenticeship. A contract in two parts, by which a person, generally a minor, is bound to serve another in his trade, art, or occupation for a stated time, on condition of being instructed in the same." I'm not sure what you mean by "no longer need a parent for this step". What step? When they reached the end of the agreed upon period, then the indenture was over. I suppose if they were not of full age then, they might still need a guardian. I agree with Peter that under the Roman-Dutch law, the age when a man had full rights was 25. But as he mentions, there some things that occured earlier. For example, to be "able to bear arms" a young man had to be only 16. Also, he could be taxed at 16, as I recall. My gut feel is that indentures of apprenticeship usually were set to run until the boy was about 21. One place to get some actual data is in the book The Burghers of New Amsterdam and the Freemen of New York. This is vol 18 of Collections of the New-York Historical Society (1885). In the back on pp. 565 to 622 are shown a large number of indentures of apprenticeship. These cover 1695 to 1708. Here's two examples: In 1703, Edward Garnum, age 10, was apprenticed to William Haywood, shipwright, for 11 years. [ibid. p. 606] In 1698, William Evans aged 14 was apprenticed to Abraham Splinter, cordwainor, tanner, and currier for 5 1/2 years. Mr. Splinter also at the end had to provide William with 2 suits of clothes and he had to be taught to read, write, and cypher as far as the Rule of three.[p. 578] Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

In a message dated 3/9/2007 6:25:05 PM Mountain Standard Time, barbarademare@yahoo.com writes: Children are baptized; ships are christened. Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. Historian, genealogist and attorney 155 Polifly Road Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 (201) 567-9440 office BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ You totally cracked me up Barb, almost choked to death on my coffee!!!! Cyn <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Just to clarify ... it is "some" Protestant churches that use dedication; some do not have dedication but baptism which is not the same. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. Albert Einstein, 1879-1955, American (German-born) physicist ----- Original Message ----- From: "MScheffler" <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? > Christening and baptism are the same thing. Protestant churches who > baptize adults usually call the church ceremony for children "Dedication" > when the parents and witnesses stand up in front of the church > congregation > and promise to raise children in whatever Christian church it is. Usually > the congregation takes a vow as well to assist the parents in the process. > > Margaret Scheffler > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <SellanaBelle@aol.com> > > >> I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is >> baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children are >> christened. >> I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then >> they >> are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am Catholic and we "baptize" our children or adults, the word Christening is not used in our Church, at least here in PA that I am familiar with. Judy <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Does anyone know the legal age of an adult in New Netherlands? This is in relation to an endenture. When would a child no longer need a parent for this step? If no one knows specifically, can anyone refer me to a general source of law in the period Elizabeth > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This conversation is interesting, but enough already, I had 65 e-mails today and a least half of them were about this subject. Can we get back to genealogy, and anyone can use whatever term they are comfortable with in their family. Marion <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

I actually agree with you Liz that some churches are very clear cut on their use of the terms and much more specific about the theological definition of the words than are others. But if the average person says they are going to a baptism or christening, we all have a general idea of what is meant, though we may not understand the specific nuance of that person's interpretation or of the particular brand of Christianity to which they subscribe. I would assume we might give as almost many interpretations as we have list members <g> Certainly baptism in my denomination -- the United Church of Christ has a different theological definition than say in the Catholic Church. And it would appear from this thread that the RDC has very specific interpretations of the meaning of baptism. I guess I would have expected the Reformed Churches to approach baptism like the Presbyterian Church with which I have experience(I have learned something). Though, for most practical purposes there is probably not a single denomination whose members would not give a wide range of what they think the rite or sacrament or ceremony means. For genealogical purposes whether a person chooses the term Christen or Baptism probably does not really matter except in genealogical data entry I like to use terms that I think the particular family might have used. I myself almost always use baptism because that is what I grew up using. I do know that many of the descendants from my own Dutch heritage were members of the Presbyterian Church. My family became Baptist. Margaret Scheffler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Johnson" <elizajohn@sbcglobal.net> ? > The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by each > religious group and what we have read here, written by some who have > stated the case much better that I, there is a theological difference in > some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and they > cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As the > product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the Catholic > Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being christened. My > husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC and the descendant of > more members of the RDC than I can count, has not heard of christening > being used in that particular group. This all goes back to the suggestion > that we adhere to the usage by the particular group about which we write > which I believe to be an excellent idea. > MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism are the > same thing. Protestant churches who baptize adults usually call the church > ceremony for children "Dedication" when the parents and witnesses stand > up in front of the church congregation and promise to raise children in > whatever Christian church it is. Usually the congregation takes a vow as > well to assist the parents in the process.

In the Baptist Church we dedicate a baby at a month or more of age. Usually the baby is given its first New Testament with its name on it. This is to say we will rear the child in a Christian Home. When the child reaches an age to understand that Jesus is our hope for eternity, then he accepts this, joins the church and is baptised. Usually this happens at the age of 9-14. The person who joins the church comes down the aisle to the pastor, and the congregation says "Yes" that we will help the child in the growth of Christianity. Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara & George Grenier" <grenier@earthlink.net> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Christening - only ships? >I have heard the term, baby dedication. I always thought it was probably > in churches that didn't baptize babies. > > Barbara > > > > At 11:28 PM 3/9/07, you wrote: >>I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is >>baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children >>are christened. >>I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then they >>are baptized at the age of knowledge. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Christening and baptism are the same thing. Protestant churches who baptize adults usually call the church ceremony for children "Dedication" when the parents and witnesses stand up in front of the church congregation and promise to raise children in whatever Christian church it is. Usually the congregation takes a vow as well to assist the parents in the process. Margaret Scheffler ----- Original Message ----- From: <SellanaBelle@aol.com> > I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children are > christened. > I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then they > are baptized at the age of knowledge.

Just to throw in my 2 cents worth.. Having different religions in the same family tree. I had the same question growing up. The answer I was told by the clergy. Different religions have different terms for the same rite. Baptism is the same as Christening. "the blessing of the child and washing away of original sin" Faye

In the Catholic Church, it is called the Sacrament of Baptism. Christening refers to the person being dedicated to the Christian faith. I am assuming since the meaning of baptism comes from being submerged in water, baptism would be the rite, and christening would be the dedication of the child/person to Christ. Through this toilsome world, alas! Once and only once I pass; If a kindness I may show, If a good deed I may do To a suffering fellow man, No delay for it is plain I shall not pass this way again." <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

That may well be what the dictionary says ... but there is a great theological difference. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. Albert Einstein, 1879-1955, American (German-born) physicist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray C" <raycapp@optonline.net> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > Sorry, but Christening and Baptizing are the same rite. I believe the > verb > christen means to make a person a part of Christendom. > > The New Collegiate dictionary presents Baptize as the first meaning of > Christen. > > Ray C > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara de Mare > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:24 PM > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > Children are baptized; ships are christened. > > Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. > Historian, genealogist and attorney > 155 Polifly Road > Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 > (201) 567-9440 office > BarbaradeMare@yahoo.com (home) > http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Helen Graves <hgraves1@frontiernet.net> > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2007 6:48:22 PM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term Reformed Dutch Chruch > > I have received group sheets from other researchers which have stated > "chr. > Kingston Reformed Dutch Church" on them. > >>From the recent discussion, what is the acceptable or most used term for > listing baptisms at early Reformed Dutch churches on family group sheets? > > "bp. RDC Kingston" - would that work? Or is there some other terminology > and > > abbreviation to use? > > I want to be correct and consistent on my group sheets for listing the > baptism and the church where baptized. > > Helen > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is sort of a "you say 'poe-TAY-toe' I say 'poe-TAH-toe'" thing. Different denominations of the Christrian faith have their own terminology and definitions. One just goes with whatever his/her own denomination prefers. As far as I am concerned, there is no correct/wrong terminology; just use what is the practice of your particular church. Adrian

The same doesn't work here. In short, given the description by each religious group and what we have read here, written by some who have stated the case much better that I, there is a theological difference in some faiths which creates a different meaning for the words and they cannot be said to be the same regardless of the dictionary. As the product of the Roman Catholic schools and being raised in the Catholic Church, I have never heard of a Catholic child being christened. My husband, raised as a Protestant, a member of the RDC and the descendant of more members of the RDC than I can count, has not heard of christening being used in that particular group. This all goes back to the suggestion that we adhere to the usage by the particular group about which we write which I believe to be an excellent idea. MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: Christening and baptism are the same thing. Protestant churches who baptize adults usually call the church ceremony for children "Dedication" when the parents and witnesses stand up in front of the church congregation and promise to raise children in whatever Christian church it is. Usually the congregation takes a vow as well to assist the parents in the process. Margaret Scheffler ----- Original Message ----- From: > I'm Catholic also and have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and it is > baptized. I have never seen anything where Catholic babies/children are > christened. > I have seen protestants have Christening for young children and then they > are baptized at the age of knowledge. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I would say you can't spell as everybody knows it is potatoes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. S. Balch" <asbalch@hal-pc.org> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:09 AM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Baptism correct term This is sort of a "you say 'poe-TAY-toe' I say 'poe-TAH-toe'" thing. Different denominations of the Christrian faith have their own terminology and definitions. One just goes with whatever his/her own denomination prefers. As far as I am concerned, there is no correct/wrong terminology; just use what is the practice of your particular church. Adrian ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message