Was Maria BADIE b. ca 1608, wife of Jacob VERDON, born in the Netherlands? Lisa >

Are there any published records of the Presbyterian churches in Southold/Southampton areas from the late 1660's early 1700's? * * * * * * ~ ~ ~ ~ Please check our Home Page ~ ~ ~ ~ * * * * * * http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/a/n/d/Sharon-D-Andreasen/ ~~~~~ Speak kind words/hear kind echoes ~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of David Roberts Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 2:06 PM To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Dutch Reformed & Presbyterian Although this would relate more to ethnic English rather than ethnic Dutch churches, most of the English "Puritan" or Congregationalist churches on Long Island which were established in the mid-17th century became "Presbyterian" by the early 18th century. This would involve the congregations at, among other places: Southold, Southampton, East Hampton,

Hi Diane, From: "Diane" <pandreasen@stny.rr.com> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Dutch Reformed & Presbyterian > Are there any published records of the Presbyterian churches in > Southold/Southampton areas from the late 1660's early 1700's? I'm guessing that what you want is baptism and marriage records as opposed to church history. Perhaps since those were English towns, they seem to be more like the towns in Mass. in that you are more likely to find that info in town records than church records for that era. For Southampton -- Births from 1660 to 1778 are in The Daughters of the American Revolution Magazine, vol 87, no. 3 (Mar 1953), pp 409-412. Marriages 1660-1768 and Deaths 1677-1813 are in the same vol 87, no. 11 (Nov 1953), pp. 1247-1250. For Southold -- Births, marriages and deaths. In "Southold, N. Y., Town Records, Vital Statistics from Libers D. and E., in the Town Clerk's Office" NYGBR vol 38 no. 3 thru vol 39 no. 2. These are organized by family -- just the way they were entered, I assume. The time period is from roughly mid 1600's to mid 1700's. Also there is "The Salmon Records" in NYGBR vols 47 thru 49. These are "a private register of marriages and deaths". "The lists extend from 1696 to 1811..." It starts with deaths in vol 47, p. 344. Marriages begin in vol 49, p. 64. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

Think of it this way, a lot of Dutch seem to have a fish bone caught in their throat when they speak... Just kidding, just kidding....(and did you know that there has never been an official end to the Dutch-English wars of the 17th century?) The thing is, it is easier for me to understand spoken Dutch in the southern areas near the Channel. When you get to Amsterdam it gets a little rough, though most of the TV news has the Amsterdam/Hilversum accent, but once you are in the north, forget it, and well, they are speaking more Frisian than Dutch anyway... It's a really fascinating country. Was recently in Vaals, across the border from Aachen, and there are, well, were, four Lutheran churches from the 17th century there which were built when German Catholics fled from the Catholic Rhineland into this very Catholic area of Holland (seriously Catholic, like almost Flemish Catholicism). I had no idea before that even in such a deeply Catholic area of Holland that Protestants had been historically welcomed and protected. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here? -----Original Message----- From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara & George Grenier Sent: Freitag, 23. März 2007 18:58 To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] names Dutch names are harder:-) Thought I knew about patronymics and dit names (my husband's French Canadians) What I seem to know is equivalent to my sticking one toe in the swimming pool before jumping in. Barbara Southern California At 08:51 AM 3/23/07, you wrote: >Thanks for the tip. Dutch history is not at all easy to grasp. > >-----Original Message----- >From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Agnes Mitchell >Sent: Freitag, 23. März 2007 16:56 >To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] stereotypes about the Dutch ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the tip. Dutch history is not at all easy to grasp. -----Original Message----- From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Agnes Mitchell Sent: Freitag, 23. März 2007 16:56 To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] stereotypes about the Dutch Relevant book The Embarrassment of riches" by Schama. alm > [Original Message] > From: E.J.Richards <richards@uni-wuppertal.de> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Date: 3/23/2007 6:30:18 AM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] stereotypes about the Dutch > > It is important to distinguish between long standing stereotypes of the > Dutch and changing social and historical realities. > > Yes, the Dutch were sensible, hard-working and thrifty because they were > fighting with the North Sea to preserve their land. It is not that the > Dutch spend less (go to a restaurant in Amsterdam and you'll see what I > mean, or look at some of the jewelry or antique stores in Amsterdam as > well), they just are not ostentatious with their wealth (which is > considerable). And the Dutch were historically absolute models of > religious tolerance -- long before the Pilgrims sought refuge there, > many of the Jews driven out of Spain in 1492 settled in Amsterdam (and > Hamburg, and Istanbul). I live very close to Holland, in Munster > (Westfalen), and so have contacts on an almost daily basis with Dutch > people, who are actually, above all, fun-loving and lots of fun (even if > they like this really sweetish honey cake for breakfast). During the > last Soccer World Cup, everybody loved the Dutch fans, painted in > orange. They were silly and sweet. Great fun. > > Historically Holland has been drawn toward France to the south, Germany > to the west and England across the Channel. Erasmus, the great > humanist, once wrote that he could be "French" or maybe "German" but > certainly not a "Batavian" (the word which Dutch Renaissance humanists > re-introduced to call themselves, based on the name of a Germanic tribe > which disappeared in the 4th century A..D.). It's not easy being Dutch, > and the Reformed Church, while tolerant toward others, has historically > been rather austere. By the same token, Dutch Catholics have always > inspired dread in more conservative quarters of the Catholic church. > > And yes, at the same time, please remember, there are some dark sides to > Dutch history which any Dutch person will admit to. The Dutch had a vast > colonial empire and made few friends in the Dutch East Indies. Much of > Holland's considerable wealth depended not only on trade but on the > colonial system which favored the mother country. The Dutch sent the > largest number of SS volunteers to the Eastern Front and many Dutch did > well and truly collaborate with the Nazis. (For example, there is a new > exhibition here in Muenster, which is where the independence of the > original Republic of the United Provinces was declared, whence its > special place in Dutch history, devoted to the children of Dutch > collaborators and how they were marked in postwar Dutch society.) And > last but not least, the Dutch tolerance of recreational drugs -- and the > connection between Surinam and Amsterdam making drug smuggling from > South America to all of Europe very easy -- is not exactly something > many people in Holland are particularly proud of. And in the last few > years, every Dutch tolerance has been recently tested to the limit with > a number of political murders and the torching of some mosques. > > So, well, being Dutch is not always easy. But hey, is being a part of > any national community easy? > > Cheers, > Jeff Richards > Muenster, Germany > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > ALarue3325@aol.com > Sent: Donnerstag, 22. März 2007 23:45 > To: Dutch-Colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] (no subject) > > > > > The Dutch are seen as sensible, hard-working, and thrifty. They are > very > direct. Depending on your point of view, this is rude, tactless or > refreshing. > Dutch people spend less, and when they do spend it is on more practical > > items than extravagant decorations and status symbols. When given a > chance to > practically economize, they will. > > > > > ************************************** AOL now offers free email to > everyone. > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Quoting: I suppose going directly west from England in the fall was a bad idea. Look at the Plymouth Pilgrims and their horrid voyage across, which was the subject on a recent TV show. - - - - Going west from England to America was a bad idea in any season; it meant they were bucking the Gulf Stream almost the whole way. Later, when more about the winds and currents was understood, it became routine for sailing vessels to drop down as far as the Azores, perhaps ("until the butter melts," as one sailor put it) and then hang a right. They could then pick up the trade winds, which blow almost due west. They seldom went any other way. A much easier route than the North Atlantic one, possibly taking a shorter amount of time even though longer in distance, and certainly much warmer. Edie in Maine

Thanks Lorine for posting this! I am not sure how he fits into my Marcellus/Marcelius from NJ, but probably does. Elsie Wilson At 02:11 PM 3/23/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >There is a letter online from a Mr. Marcellus to "Potter". Marcellus >is from New Jersey. I hope someone recognizes an ancestor > >http://paper-trail.blogspot.com/ > > > >Lorine > > >-- >Olive Tree Genealogy >http://olivetreegenealogy.com > Elsie H. Wilson 5620 Harris Cir. Fitchburg, WI 53575 (608) 835-6791 ehwilson@charter.net

In a message dated 3/23/2007 8:47:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Jacassidy22@aol.com writes: Clearification: At the Delaware Valley Water Gap area, the travelers crossed back from PA over to New Jersey and then traveled up to Port Jervis and the Old Mine Road. Judy The Minisink Valley Historical Society in Port Jervis, Orange Co., NY has a page with 5 maps of "The Minisinks" showing the entirety of the Old Mine Road on its Web Site _http://www.minisink.org/patent.html_ (http://www.minisink.org/patent.html) Enjoy Cynthia ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Hi everyone, There is a letter online from a Mr. Marcellus to "Potter". Marcellus is from New Jersey. I hope someone recognizes an ancestor http://paper-trail.blogspot.com/ Lorine -- Olive Tree Genealogy http://olivetreegenealogy.com

Pete, In a message dated 3/23/2007 12:15:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gonigam@gmail.com writes: Kinda interesting that the voyages listed start out with a lot of WIC-owned ships but later on privately-owned vessels predominate. If you have not already done so, I strongly suggest that you read the book "The Island at the Center of the World" by Russell Shorto. While Shorto does not specifically address the point of ship ownership, he does lay out the reason why WIC ships predominate up to the mid-1650s. The point is simple. Prior to that time (mid-1650s), New Netherland was considered a WIC property designed not for long term colonization, but rather to make a return on investment for the WIC shareholders. After that point in time, thanks largely to the efforts of Adriaen Van der Donck, colonization independent of the WIC was a primary focus. Thus, there are far more families emigrating to New Netherland post say 1655 that previously. A second relatively recent book worth reading (but it is far more costly to purchase) is "New Netherland A Dutch Colony in Seventeenth Century America" by Jaap Jacobs. This is more in the line of a thesis, and it is not an easy casual read compared to Shorto. But for background, it is, in my opinion, an essential work. Steve Mabie ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Although this would relate more to ethnic English rather than ethnic Dutch churches, most of the English "Puritan" or Congregationalist churches on Long Island which were established in the mid-17th century became "Presbyterian" by the early 18th century. This would involve the congregations at, among other places: Southold, Southampton, East Hampton, Brookhaven [now Setauket], Smithtown, Huntington, Oyster Bay, Hempstead, & Jamaica. There was a move to re-establish "Congregationalist" churches in the mid-18th century and a number of Congregationalist [now U. C. C.] congregations were established in eastern Suffolk County, especially on the North Fork [present Towns of Southold & Riverhead]. I would think there was very little theological differences in the 17th and 18th and early/mid 19th centuries between the Dutch Reformed, the Presbyterian, and the Congregationalist. The differences were more ethnic and language or the forms of church polity and government. Today there would be some very major differences between various modern-day groups that have developed from this "Calvinist" core ... from very liberal to very conservative in theology, politics, and such. The Dutch Church at Oyster Bay was the most "easterly" of the Dutch churches in Queens County during the 18th century. My Van Velsor line was at one time connected to this church until they drifted off into English-speaking Methodism. From my readings of the local newspaper in the late 19th century, I don't see any major differences from what the Dutch church in Oyster Bay - at Wolver Hollow, now Brookville [Town of Oyster Bay, Nassau County] - was doing from what the local Presbyterian [or for that matter the local Methodist] churches were doing. Families seemed to move in and out of various denominations. Naturally, the Methodists grew from the Church of England [Anglican or Episcopalian] so they do have a different "root" than the various Calvinist groups. David David Roberts Hollywood, MD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Otte" <edotte@optonline.net> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Dutch Reformed & Presbyterian > The main difference between the two sects seems to me to be in the > leadership roles and church government because theologically they are > virtually one. What I found interesting is that many in the > Congregationalist churches (Puritan) came over to the Presbyterian churches > in many places and soon America grew to be a "Presbyterian" place for quite > some time but now Presbyterianism in America seems to be on the wan. > > Edward Otte > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of NYHuguenot@aol.com > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:43 AM > To: dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Dutch Reformed & Presbyterian > > For those unaware of what the Reformed church is: It includes the Reformed > churches of the Netherlands, Switzerland, France, Germany and Hungary. The > Reformed churches of the British Isles are called Presbyterian since they > preferred to call themselves after the polity which has Teaching and Ruling > Elders > all of whom have parity with all Reformed Elders. > > There is also a large Reformed presence in the Ukraine which is undergoing > a > growth mode. It's central church in Kiev is being restored after much hard > use by the Communists. A number of Reformed denominations are setting up > seminaries for the training of pastors. There is also a small movement > working in > Poland to build up the Reformed church there after it's decimation during > the > Counter-reformation. > > > Bob

If the "someone" to whom the amount is promised the "bearer", the modern term is "bearer security" (bearer bond, bearer note, bearer bill, etc.), i.e., payable to holder/bearer at the time payment is due, thus endorsement is not necessary to transfer. Chris On 3/23/07, j. gonigam <gonigam@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Howard-- > > Criminey. I've looked at that page at least five times. Another example > of > my overlooking the > obvious. Kinda interesting that the voyages listed start out with a lot > of > WIC-owned ships > but later on privately-owned vessels predominate. > > Coincidental to my hypothesis that ship's owners might have sold the debts > for passage to > New Amsterdam in New Amsterdam, last night I found in an article in the > latest "Smithsonian" > that in England in the 18th century there was an instrument called a "note > of hand" which was > essentially an unsecured promissory note to pay a specified amount to > somone > at a specified > time. Apparently notes in hand were bought and traded back and > forth. The > only way I can figure for that to work is if the notes were endorsed over > as > today with a third-party check, the point being that in such a case > there'd > be no record of the debt transfer except on the instrument itself. > > Thanks to Peter Christopher for the explanation of why there's so little > in > the way of > records relating to the WIC. Pulped. Dear Lord. > > I guess the bottom line is there were a lot of ways for there to have been > no record of > who, if anyone, paid for a passage. > > --pete > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 6:29 PM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Ship fares and ownership (was: Theunis / > VanArnhemgenealogy) > > > > Hi Pete, > > > > From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > > > > > > > Dear Howard-- > > > > > > Your wondering if anyone bothered to pay the DWIC for outstanding > > > debt after the British took over New Amsterdam is interesting. It > > > might have been simple for Sara to just walk away from the debt under > the > > > circumstances. On the other hand, I'd think that if any debts incurred > under > > > the Dutch regime were uncollectable due to the change in the colony's > > > ownership a company run by canny Dutch businessmen would sell them at > a > > > discount to some canny British businessmen who would hope to collect > on > them > > > at full value. It's how they do it today and these old businessmen > seem > to > > > have been surprisingly sophisticated in matters of finance. > > > > In the Bailey article I cited previously, she has a quote from James > Riker > > to the effect that he thinks that after the English had confiscated the > Company's > > property they were going to try to collect these debts. > > > > > Be that as it may, I'm not sure Sara owed passage to the West India > Company. > > > You and Lorrine have both used phrasing implying that WIC owned or at > least > > > controlled "De Trauw" and perhaps the other ships on the Ships' > List. I > > > haven't been able to find a clear explication of the shipping setup > anent > > > New Netherlands or the WIC but I have found several references to > > > "merchants", "shipowners", WIC-licensed privateers and WIC-chartered > > > ships. Perhaps WIC owned ships outright but the odds and ends that > > > I've found suggest at least some of the traffic between Netherlands > and > > > New Netherlands (and apparently at least Boston and Virginia) > > > was via independently-owned merchant vessels. > > > > The DWIC had hundreds of ships. I think most were used in the > privateering > > against the Spanish and in trade in the Caribbean. See "Early Dutch > Emigration > > to America" by Hoffman NGSQ 29: 81ff. > > > > This chart: > > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_shipnyam.shtml > > shows who owned which ship. De Trouw is shown with a private owner, > > owner not named. > > > > Searching CDNY for de Trouw, I found a couple of interesting mentions. > > In II:60 it is referred to as a private trader in Feb 1659. > > In XIV:433-4 at the same date is mentioned that there were colonists > > now going on it at the expense of the Company. > > > > If the same conditions still applied to the 1664 voyage, then Sara > Teunis > > could have gone on a private ship, but still owed the Company. > > > > Regards, > > Howard > > hswain@ix.netcom.com > > Standard Source Abbreviations: > > > > http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=96 > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Additional routes that Barbara and I found were: 1.Long Island to Northumberland Co.PA, to Chautauqua Co, NY. to Yates Co., NY to Ontario Co., NY, to Erie Co., PA, and of course into Canada. 2.Orange Co, NY to Luzerne Co PA and then west 3. Somerset Co, PA and Bucks Co PA to Washington Co PA and west, When Ohio opened up, that led to a lot of migrations from these counties to Ohio. Many events were determining factors, but the Revolutionary War brought all kinds of men together, especialy young men who hooked up with other men from various states and friendships were formed and once the war was over, they were off to seek their futures.There was far more movement the I think most people realize. People were on the move but they usually did travel with someone from their family, a brother, brother-in-law, friends etc. Judy Cassidy Judy ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Thanks for the list Leslie. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Dear Howard-- Criminey. I've looked at that page at least five times. Another example of my overlooking the obvious. Kinda interesting that the voyages listed start out with a lot of WIC-owned ships but later on privately-owned vessels predominate. Coincidental to my hypothesis that ship's owners might have sold the debts for passage to New Amsterdam in New Amsterdam, last night I found in an article in the latest "Smithsonian" that in England in the 18th century there was an instrument called a "note of hand" which was essentially an unsecured promissory note to pay a specified amount to somone at a specified time. Apparently notes in hand were bought and traded back and forth. The only way I can figure for that to work is if the notes were endorsed over as today with a third-party check, the point being that in such a case there'd be no record of the debt transfer except on the instrument itself. Thanks to Peter Christopher for the explanation of why there's so little in the way of records relating to the WIC. Pulped. Dear Lord. I guess the bottom line is there were a lot of ways for there to have been no record of who, if anyone, paid for a passage. --pete ---- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Swain" <hswain@ix.netcom.com> To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 6:29 PM Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Ship fares and ownership (was: Theunis / VanArnhemgenealogy) > Hi Pete, > > From: "j. gonigam" <gonigam@gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:24 PM > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Theunis / VanArnhem genealogy > > > > Dear Howard-- > > > > Your wondering if anyone bothered to pay the DWIC for outstanding > > debt after the British took over New Amsterdam is interesting. It > > might have been simple for Sara to just walk away from the debt under the > > circumstances. On the other hand, I'd think that if any debts incurred under > > the Dutch regime were uncollectable due to the change in the colony's > > ownership a company run by canny Dutch businessmen would sell them at a > > discount to some canny British businessmen who would hope to collect on them > > at full value. It's how they do it today and these old businessmen seem to > > have been surprisingly sophisticated in matters of finance. > > In the Bailey article I cited previously, she has a quote from James Riker > to the effect that he thinks that after the English had confiscated the Company's > property they were going to try to collect these debts. > > > Be that as it may, I'm not sure Sara owed passage to the West India Company. > > You and Lorrine have both used phrasing implying that WIC owned or at least > > controlled "De Trauw" and perhaps the other ships on the Ships' List. I > > haven't been able to find a clear explication of the shipping setup anent > > New Netherlands or the WIC but I have found several references to > > "merchants", "shipowners", WIC-licensed privateers and WIC-chartered > > ships. Perhaps WIC owned ships outright but the odds and ends that > > I've found suggest at least some of the traffic between Netherlands and > > New Netherlands (and apparently at least Boston and Virginia) > > was via independently-owned merchant vessels. > > The DWIC had hundreds of ships. I think most were used in the privateering > against the Spanish and in trade in the Caribbean. See "Early Dutch Emigration > to America" by Hoffman NGSQ 29: 81ff. > > This chart: > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_shipnyam.shtml > shows who owned which ship. De Trouw is shown with a private owner, > owner not named. > > Searching CDNY for de Trouw, I found a couple of interesting mentions. > In II:60 it is referred to as a private trader in Feb 1659. > In XIV:433-4 at the same date is mentioned that there were colonists > now going on it at the expense of the Company. > > If the same conditions still applied to the 1664 voyage, then Sara Teunis > could have gone on a private ship, but still owed the Company. > > Regards, > Howard > hswain@ix.netcom.com > Standard Source Abbreviations: > http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=96 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

So THAT's were I get my tolerance! :-) Ady

Relevant book The Embarrassment of riches" by Schama. alm > [Original Message] > From: E.J.Richards <richards@uni-wuppertal.de> > To: <dutch-colonies@rootsweb.com> > Date: 3/23/2007 6:30:18 AM > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] stereotypes about the Dutch > > It is important to distinguish between long standing stereotypes of the > Dutch and changing social and historical realities. > > Yes, the Dutch were sensible, hard-working and thrifty because they were > fighting with the North Sea to preserve their land. It is not that the > Dutch spend less (go to a restaurant in Amsterdam and you'll see what I > mean, or look at some of the jewelry or antique stores in Amsterdam as > well), they just are not ostentatious with their wealth (which is > considerable). And the Dutch were historically absolute models of > religious tolerance -- long before the Pilgrims sought refuge there, > many of the Jews driven out of Spain in 1492 settled in Amsterdam (and > Hamburg, and Istanbul). I live very close to Holland, in Munster > (Westfalen), and so have contacts on an almost daily basis with Dutch > people, who are actually, above all, fun-loving and lots of fun (even if > they like this really sweetish honey cake for breakfast). During the > last Soccer World Cup, everybody loved the Dutch fans, painted in > orange. They were silly and sweet. Great fun. > > Historically Holland has been drawn toward France to the south, Germany > to the west and England across the Channel. Erasmus, the great > humanist, once wrote that he could be "French" or maybe "German" but > certainly not a "Batavian" (the word which Dutch Renaissance humanists > re-introduced to call themselves, based on the name of a Germanic tribe > which disappeared in the 4th century A..D.). It's not easy being Dutch, > and the Reformed Church, while tolerant toward others, has historically > been rather austere. By the same token, Dutch Catholics have always > inspired dread in more conservative quarters of the Catholic church. > > And yes, at the same time, please remember, there are some dark sides to > Dutch history which any Dutch person will admit to. The Dutch had a vast > colonial empire and made few friends in the Dutch East Indies. Much of > Holland's considerable wealth depended not only on trade but on the > colonial system which favored the mother country. The Dutch sent the > largest number of SS volunteers to the Eastern Front and many Dutch did > well and truly collaborate with the Nazis. (For example, there is a new > exhibition here in Muenster, which is where the independence of the > original Republic of the United Provinces was declared, whence its > special place in Dutch history, devoted to the children of Dutch > collaborators and how they were marked in postwar Dutch society.) And > last but not least, the Dutch tolerance of recreational drugs -- and the > connection between Surinam and Amsterdam making drug smuggling from > South America to all of Europe very easy -- is not exactly something > many people in Holland are particularly proud of. And in the last few > years, every Dutch tolerance has been recently tested to the limit with > a number of political murders and the torching of some mosques. > > So, well, being Dutch is not always easy. But hey, is being a part of > any national community easy? > > Cheers, > Jeff Richards > Muenster, Germany > > -----Original Message----- > From: dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dutch-colonies-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > ALarue3325@aol.com > Sent: Donnerstag, 22. M�rz 2007 23:45 > To: Dutch-Colonies@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] (no subject) > > > > > The Dutch are seen as sensible, hard-working, and thrifty. They are > very > direct. Depending on your point of view, this is rude, tactless or > refreshing. > Dutch people spend less, and when they do spend it is on more practical > > items than extravagant decorations and status symbols. When given a > chance to > practically economize, they will. > > > > > ************************************** AOL now offers free email to > everyone. > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH-COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Clearification: At the Delaware Valley Water Gap area, the travelers crossed back from PA over to New Jersey and then traveled up to Port Jervis and the Old Mine Road. Judy ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

While researching the Dorland book as many members of this and related families did go from Morris Co, Somerset County New Jersey etc.,Northampton Co PA, as well as areas of New York up to the fingerlakes and then west over to near Lake Erie, I discovered that they headed north on the trail up the NJ side of the Delaware River, then some crossed over around Easten PA and headed up the Pa side of the Delaware River on that side before recrossing back over into N.J. Most areas of the Delaware River are simply too shallow and rocky for boat travel which is why the canal system existed in later years. At the Delaware Valley Water Gap, travelers crossed back over to Port Jervis and the Old Mine Road, where Wayne and Pike Co's PA, Warren and Sussex NJ and Orange and Sullivan NY. The Old Mine Road was believed to have been the first 100 mile road built in American and begun by the Dutch as early as the 1600's. There is an excellent map in C.G. Hine, History and Legend Fact, Fancy and Romance of the Old Mine Road, Kingston, N.Y. to the Mine Holes of Pahaquarry, 19008, and the Minisink Valley Historical Society, P.O. Box 659, Port Jervis, NY 12772 has additional information.There was a lot of family traffic, both to the fingerlakes region and then returning back to New Jersey, so once they got there, they did not always remain, many returned back to N.J. or simply traveled back and forth between locations. The Old Mine Roads still exists and if you do a Google Search you will find that there are many good articles on this topic. Judy Cassidy ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

p.s. I know where the delete button is------ ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.