Pam: Thanks! I can always count on you for a helpful response :) I don't know anything about the origins of John ASKIN[G] but Walraven LUTEN was from Flanders... "Walraven Luten from Flanders wife & infant [NWI]" As copied from http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship11.shtml If Hester (DELAHAILL) (LUTEN) MARTINEAU was the wife named in the record above, then she was from Flanders as well. So it seems most likely that Walraven & Hester were Flemish or Dutch. Walraven & Hester named a daughter Hester and she, in turn, apparently named children John [name of father], Mary [name of maternal aunt], Abraham [name of maternal uncle] and Elizabeth so it seems like this family was honoring loved ones in traditional ways. On the chance that Walraven & Hester were French, like Hester's second husband, the French reportedly followed this pattern: "Every first-born son was generally named after the paternal grandfather. The second-born son was named after the maternal grandfather. The first two daughters were generally named after their grandmothers, order would flip-flop depending on whether one was dead or not. Since maternal mortality was high, you'll often see the name of a deceased grandmother being used over and over again." As copied from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070516062324AAIEiUZ Perry -----Original Message----- From: Pamela J. Sears [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:13 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] ASKIN[G]/GARRISON/LUTEN/MARTINEAU/OLIPHANT; , Staten Island & NJ; 1600s+; plus FOUNTAIN/PERRINE/+ Hi Perry, Just a comment or observation which I think you need to consider in this regard. You wrote (in part): > Q. Were Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT daughters of > Mary-2 (LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKING, who was the daughter of > Walraven-1 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE & Hester DELAHAILL of Staten Island? > > That Mary-2 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE (Walraven-1) married John ASKING/ASKIN > (of unknown origin) and had children is inferred from her brother's will: > > Page 75.--ABRAHAM LUTINE. "Richmond County, December ye 2, 1702. I, > Abraham LUTINE, being in perfect memory, Praised be God for it." I > give to my loving wife, Ann Lutine, one lot of land whereon I now > live, joining to Isaac Bellin, with all the rights thereto belonging. > I give to John ASKING, Jr., my sister's son, one lot of land being > near ye Isenberg, with all the rights > thereto belonging. I leave all my lands in East New Jersey to the > children of my two sisters, Mary and Hester. I leave to my loving > mother 2. I leave to John ASKING, Jr., two horses, and to Abraham > Crocheron, son of John Crocheron, one cow. Makes his wife executor. > > Witnesses, John Stillwell, David De Bon Repos. Proved, December 22, 1702. > > Source = Abstracts of Wills Vol I 1665-1707, page 357 & 358. > > *If* John & Mary (LUTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKIN followed traditional > patterns when naming their children, those children would have > *possibly* included daughters named as follows: > > 1. Hester [name of maternal grandmother]. > >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Johannes/John-3 > GERRITSEN/GARRISON? > 2. ----- [name of paternal grandmother]. > 3. Mary [name of mother]. > >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Duncan OLIPHANT? My observation: > *If* John & Mary (LUTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKIN followed traditional > patterns when naming their children, those children would have > *possibly* included daughters named as follows: You have left out one important word in the above speculative hypothesis, and that would be *Dutch.* The families under discussion had no known Dutch origins or affiliations. The only known child (son) of John Asking and Mary Lutine (from the will of Abraham Lutine cited above) was John Asking, Jr, and we do not know if John Asking, Sr. was the son of another John Asking, or simply named his son (John) after himself. In reality, there is no evidence (or precedent) to even suggest that they followed any "traditional" naming patterns, either Dutch or otherwise. Best regards, Pam Sears

Hi Perry, Just a comment or observation which I think you need to consider in this regard. You wrote (in part): > Q. Were Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT daughters of > Mary-2 (LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKING, who was the daughter of > Walraven-1 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE & Hester DELAHAILL of Staten Island? > > That Mary-2 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE (Walraven-1) married John ASKING/ASKIN > (of unknown origin) and had children is inferred from her brother's will: > > Page 75.--ABRAHAM LUTINE. "Richmond County, December ye 2, 1702. I, > Abraham LUTINE, being in perfect memory, Praised be God for it." I > give to my loving wife, Ann Lutine, one lot of land whereon I now > live, joining to Isaac Bellin, with all the rights thereto belonging. > I give to John ASKING, Jr., my sister's son, one lot of land being > near ye Isenberg, with all the rights > thereto belonging. I leave all my lands in East New Jersey to the > children of my two sisters, Mary and Hester. I leave to my loving > mother 2. I leave to John ASKING, Jr., two horses, and to Abraham > Crocheron, son of John Crocheron, one cow. Makes his wife executor. > > Witnesses, John Stillwell, David De Bon Repos. Proved, December 22, 1702. > > Source = Abstracts of Wills Vol I 1665-1707, page 357 & 358. > > *If* John & Mary (LUTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKIN followed traditional > patterns when naming their children, those children would have > *possibly* included daughters named as follows: > > 1. Hester [name of maternal grandmother]. > >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Johannes/John-3 > GERRITSEN/GARRISON? > 2. ----- [name of paternal grandmother]. > 3. Mary [name of mother]. > >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Duncan OLIPHANT? My observation: > *If* John & Mary (LUTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKIN followed traditional > patterns when naming their children, those children would have > *possibly* included daughters named as follows: You have left out one important word in the above speculative hypothesis, and that would be *Dutch.* The families under discussion had no known Dutch origins or affiliations. The only known child (son) of John Asking and Mary Lutine (from the will of Abraham Lutine cited above) was John Asking, Jr, and we do not know if John Asking, Sr. was the son of another John Asking, or simply named his son (John) after himself. In reality, there is no evidence (or precedent) to even suggest that they followed any "traditional" naming patterns, either Dutch or otherwise. Best regards, Pam Sears

About 10 years ago, I attempted to resolve the conflicting information on the death date of my ancestor Israel Knapp of Philipstown, Dutchess County New York, the husband of Mary Henion. My solution was neat, logical, e-mailed to every Knapp researcher I knew -- and, I now believe, dead wrong. This is my attempt to correct whatever misinformation I may have spread. Then, as now, there were three competing death dates to chose from: --1769 at age 62, from a transcript of the bible of his son David Knapp --1789 at age 62, from A.A. Knapp's "Nicholas Knapp Genealogy." --1795-97, based on published abstracts of his will (the period between when it was written and proved). Clearly, two of these dates had to be wrong, and the transcript of the bible record was the first to fall. Israel's children were born between 1771 and 1785; barring the presence of a very skilled medium, he did not die in 1769. I next reasoned that A.A. Knapp had realized the same thing and assumed that 1769 was a typo or transcription error for 1789. So far, my reasoning was sound. But my next leaps of logic turned out to be stumbles. A.A. Knapp made many mistakes in my line. I was not and am not inclined to trust his work. Multiple abstracts give the date of Israel's will as Aug 1, 1795. Therefore, A.A. Knapp must have been wrong, and the 1769 in the bible transcript must be a transposed 1796 -- which fits perfectly between the date the will was written and the date it was proved. The problem? A.A. Knapp got it right and the transcripts of the will got it wrong. A researcher who inspected Israel's original will reports that the date in the first line is a numeral and is hard to read. At the end, however, the date is spelled out: "the first day of August one thousand seven hundred and EIGHTY five" (emphasis mine). Assuming this information is correct, it brings us back to Israel dying in 1789, which fits well, as it turns out, with the 1790 census. A Mary Knapp is listed in Philipstown, with the right number of kids to be his widow -- and she's right near Gilbert Weeks, whose daughter married Israel's son. Israel's will was probated after her death in 1797. The revision of Israel's death date also changes his supposed birth date. Based on the 1796 death date, I subtracted 62 and got 1733/34. Based on the new date, 1789, that should be 1726/1727. -Jim Miller

ASKIN[G]/GARRISON/LUTEN/MARTINEAU/OLIPHANT; Staten Island & NJ; 1600s+; plus FOUNTAIN/PERRINE/+ Disclaimer: The following posting is highly *speculative*. Please do not take any information that I have presented as *speculative* and present it as proven or probable elsewhere. If you search the archives of this list, you will discover that some of my past *speculations* were eventually proven but many others were not! Hopefully, this posting will eventually generate enough research and analysis to confirm or refute the some of the *speculation* below. One of our favorite list members, Dorothy Koenig, was kind enough to publish the following article in New Netherland Connections this year: Perry Streeter, "Gerrit-1 Jansen Van Oldenburg: DNA Testing Yields More Garrison Descendants in New Jersey & New York; with further records of Johannes-3 Gerritsen (Jan-2 Gerrits, Gerrit-1 Jansen) of Staten Island & Amwell Township, Hunterdon County, New Jersey as the heretofore unknown father of John-4 Garrison (say 1701-1774) of Amwell Township, New Jersey & Staten Island, New York and the ancestor of the Garrison family of Amwell and Bethlehem Townships in Hunterdon County, New Jersey, probably including Jane (Garrison) Krusen, wife of Derrick/Richard-6 Krusen (Francis-5, Derrick-4, Francis-3, Derrick-2, Garret-1 Croesen) of Greenwood, NY and with insights on the brother-in-law of Johannes-3 Gerritsen, Duncan Oliphant (ca. 1682-1734) of Staten Island & Amwell Township, New Jersey," (January, February, March 2010; Volume 15, Number 1 and April, May, June 2010; volume 15; Number 2). The article, with any additions and corrections, will remain online as... http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~streeter/garrison.pdf As detailed therein on pages 3 and 4, the available evidence uncovered to date suggests that Hester, wife of Johannes/John-3 GERRITSEN/GARRISON (Jan-2 GERRITS, Gerrit-1 Jansen van Oldenburg), and Mary, wife of Duncan OLIPHANT, were *probably* sisters. In any case, it is highly unlikely that Mary (-----) OLIPHANT was a GARRISON, as many have previously assumed based only on the phrase, "my brother-in-law John GARRISON," appearing in Duncan OLIPHANT'S will. Based on the *assumption* that Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT were *probably* sisters and originated on Staten Island, I attempted (in vain) to identify their parents for inclusion in the article. Although Hester is not a rare given name, it is less common than Mary so part of my research attempts included several "what became of Hester so-and-so of Staten Island?" postings to this list, without revealing the ultimate question that I was trying to answer. Pam Sears and many others were very helpful in sorting out potential matches for Hester (-----) GARRISON. Now that the article has been published, I would like revisit one of those postings (that garnered no response at that time) with a research question that I still consider highly *speculative*. Q. Were Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT daughters of Mary-2 (LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKING, who was the daughter of Walraven-1 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE & Hester DELAHAILL of Staten Island? That Mary-2 LUTEN/LUTTEN/LUTINE (Walraven-1) married John ASKING/ASKIN (of unknown origin) and had children is inferred from her brother's will: Page 75.--ABRAHAM LUTINE. "Richmond County, December ye 2, 1702. I, Abraham LUTINE, being in perfect memory, Praised be God for it." I give to my loving wife, Ann Lutine, one lot of land whereon I now live, joining to Isaac Bellin, with all the rights thereto belonging. I give to John ASKING, Jr., my sister's son, one lot of land being near ye Isenberg, with all the rights thereto belonging. I leave all my lands in East New Jersey to the children of my two sisters, Mary and Hester. I leave to my loving mother 2. I leave to John ASKING, Jr., two horses, and to Abraham Crocheron, son of John Crocheron, one cow. Makes his wife executor. Witnesses, John Stillwell, David De Bon Repos. Proved, December 22, 1702. Source = Abstracts of Wills Vol I 1665-1707, page 357 & 358. *If* John & Mary (LUTEN/LUTINE) ASKING/ASKIN followed traditional patterns when naming their children, those children would have *possibly* included daughters named as follows: 1. Hester [name of maternal grandmother]. >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Johannes/John-3 GERRITSEN/GARRISON? 2. ----- [name of paternal grandmother]. 3. Mary [name of mother]. >> Q. Did such a daughter exist & marry Duncan OLIPHANT? The population of Staten Island was relatively small and geographically confined, so it is impossible to say whether associations developed between families simply because of proximity or associations arose from as-yet-unknown family ties. With that caveat in mind, I share the following observations that may (or may not!) have any bearing on the highly *speculative* research question put forth above. Johannes/John-3 GERRITSEN/GARRISON (Jan-2 GERRITS, Gerrit-1 Jansen van Oldenburg) was born, probably on Staten Island, say 1671 but certainly not later than 1678 (of age by 1699) and perhaps as early as 1667 (father age 25). He married, probably on Staten Island, probably before 1701 (son John-4 GARRISON was born say 1701), HESTER -----. In 1697, his mother, Elisabeth (GYSBERTS) GERRITSEN, widow of Jan-2 GERRITS, bought land from Vincent-2 FOUNTAIN and his mother, Sarah (-----) (FOUNTAIN) LAWRENCE. Vincent-2 FOUNTAIN (Antoine-1) (1682-1731) was the husband of Anne MARTINEAU, who was the daughter of Hester (DELAHAILL) (LUTEN) MARTINEAU by Hester's second husband, Francois-1 MARTINEAU. *If* Hester (-----) GARRISON, wife of Johannes/John-3, was Hester (ASKIN/ASKING) GARRISON as *speculated* above, then she was the half-niece of Anne (MARTINEAU) FOUNTAIN. However, there was also a tangential association between Sarah (-----) (FOUNTAIN) LAWRENCE and Jan-2 GERRITS (Gerrit-1 Jansen van Oldenburg) because Sarah's LAWRENCE/DUYTS/DUYTZEN in-laws were associated with (but not related to) and Gerrit-1 Jansen van Oldenburg and his wife, Clara Matthys, as employees of Jonas Bronck. For more information on this topic, see the following message and those that precede it in the thread available at: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/Dutch-Colonies/2007-07/1184120497 Other descendants of Hester (DELAHAILL) (LUTEN) MARTINEAU married members of the PERINE/PERRINE family. Anne-3 FOUNTAIN, daughter of Vincent-2 FOUNTAIN (Antoine-1) & Anne-2 MARTINEAU (Francois-1) married Henry-3 PERRINE (Peter-1, Daniel-1). Mary MARTINEAU-3 (Stephen-2, Francois-1) married Daniel-3 PERRINE (Daniel-2-1). The PERINE/PERRINE family was also closely associated with the son of Johannes/John-3 & Hester (-----) GARRISON, John-4 GARRISON, and his wife, Hannah -----. On 20 June 1765, when John-4 GARRISON purchased 121 acres on the south side of Staten Island from Edward-4 PERINE (Peter-3, Daniel-2-1) and his wife, Anne -----, for L-940, both parties were identified as residents of Richmond County. This bayside property was also bounded by Edward's brother, Henry PERINE, to the east, the "new road" to the north, and David Latourette to the west. Henry-4 PERINE subsequently served as an Executor to John-4 GARRISON's will and when John-4 GARRISON's widow Hannah subsequently advertised their farm for sale it included the following: "Any person inclining to purchase said farm, may apply to Hannah GARRISON, living on the premises, or Henry PERINE, adjoining the premises, who will give a good title to the purchaser." Clearly, Henry-4 PERINE was a trusted friend of John-4 GARRISON and he was a nephew of Henry-3 & Anne (FOUNTAIN) PERRINE. If* Hester (-----) GARRISON, wife of Johannes/John-3, was Hester (ASKIN/ASKING) GARRISON as *speculated* above, then John-4 GARRISON was the half-first-cousin-once-removed of Anne (FOUNTAIN) PERRINE. For more information, see the Martineau article in The New-York Genealogical and Biographical Record, Vol 134, Number 4, pages 243-253, October 2003" by Peter Faunce Kerr and Marjorie Decker Johnson. On 20 November 1757, Johannis, son of Antoni FOUNTEN & Annaatye GERRITSON was baptized with sponsor, Johannis GERRETSON, in the RDC of Port Richmond, Staten Island. GARRISON and variations thereof is a common Staten Island surname that represents in several unrelated families. I don't think that the GARRISONs cited in this record are descendants of Gerrit-1 Jansen van Oldenburg but I would simply like to know more about them because Antoni FOUNTEN was a grandson of Vincent-2 & Anne (MARTINEAU) FOUNTAIN. The naming pattern observed below suggests that Annatje/Annatye GERRITSEN/GERRITSON may have been the daughter of an unidentified couple named Cornelis & Margaret (-----) GARRISON: "10. Antonie <Anthony> Fonteyn (Rn=27098). He married Annatje <?> Gerritsen Fonteyn (Rn=57063). Source [Early Settlers of Bushwick by Andrew J Provost Junior page 73] Children of Antonie <Anthony> Fonteyn and Annatje <?> Gerritsen were as follows: 22. i. Cornelis <Antonie> Fonteyn was born 1750). [name of maternal grandfather (who predeceased paternal grandfather?)?] 23. ii. Antonie <Antonie> Fonteyn was born 1754). [name of paternal grandfather and father] 24. iii. Margriet <Antonie> Fonteyn was born 1756). [name of maternal grandmother?] 25. iv. Johannes <Antonie> Fonteyn was born 1758). [name of maternal uncle (and sponsor)?]" As copied from http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rclarke/page1/fonte_a2.htm In conclusion to this too-long post, the *speculation* that Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT were granddaughters of Hester (DELAHAILL) (LUTEN) MARTINEAU is admittedly very weak but it is the best working hypothesis that I have been able to develop so far. Any other theories on the possible origins of *probable* sisters Hester (-----) GARRISON & Mary (-----) OLIPHANT will be most welcome! Thanks for your help! Perry www.perry.streeter.com

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/18th-century-ship-found-at-trade-center-site/ Above is the address for the NY Times article on the Ship just discovered in NY with many photo's. Thought everyone might be interested. Judy

Try Google.com and various descriptions of what you are looking for. I would look for a major Library. Renee

Some are available via the LDS, but I have ordered several documents and collections from the National Archives in the Netherlands.   Here is a link: http://www.en.nationaalarchief.nl/ --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Thomas Family Mail <[email protected]> wrote: From: Thomas Family Mail <[email protected]> Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Searching for documents in Netherlands To: [email protected] Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:02 PM Hello,     I am working on a project that traces the inhabitants of New Netherlands (English and Dutch) who settled in Cape May County New Jersey. This is much bigger and involved than I expected. So, I decided to start at the beginning and work my way forward ( I have a bad habit of chasing down rabbit holes; my husband says it's history and genealogy A.D.D.) One of the earliest documents that is quoted in our local history books is a deed for land in Cape May bought from the local Indians. The books say that Peter Heyssen sailed on the ship Walrus as agent for Samuel Godyn and Samuel Bloenmaert bought on May 5, 1630  and recorded June 3, 1621 16 square miles along the bay of Cape May from 10 indians.  One book, History of Cape May County by Lewis Townsend Stevens (1897) gives a translation of the document and says that it at that time was housed in the Hague. Which brings me to my question. How does one go about looking for and requesting documents from the Netherlands? I would a! ppreciate any and all help. Thanks. Laurie Thomas ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Seek information on Hendrick Jansen Looman who is mention in the following two sources: First source: >From the report of a battle in Wildwijk, NY Thursday, June 7, 1663, " Hendrick Jansen Looman killed on his farm." - The History of Ulster Co., New York Vol. 1 Edited by A. T. Clearwater, 2007 Second source: LOOMAN, HENDRICK JANSEN, brewer's assistant. ... "Inventory of the estate of Hendr. Looman: A horse, being a gelding, a brewing kettle, i sword and belt, i trunk without key, with contents: i letter case with book of accounts, i old gray suit, 1 old gray-colored pair of pants, i new gray suit, 2 pair of black woollen stockings, i new black hat, i hat box, i pipe of lead, 4 small pieces of Haarlem cloth, i cloth brush, i square cravat, 2 ties, 3 handkerchiefs, i package of about i pound lead, I wagon frame with iron tires." - Full text of "Ulster County, N.Y. probate records in the office of the surrogate, and in the county clerk's office at Kingston, N.Y. : a careful abstract and translation of the Dutch and english wills, letters of administration after intestates, and inventories from l665, with genealogical and historical notes" Cornell University Library

Hello, I am working on a project that traces the inhabitants of New Netherlands (English and Dutch) who settled in Cape May County New Jersey. This is much bigger and involved than I expected. So, I decided to start at the beginning and work my way forward ( I have a bad habit of chasing down rabbit holes; my husband says it's history and genealogy A.D.D.) One of the earliest documents that is quoted in our local history books is a deed for land in Cape May bought from the local Indians. The books say that Peter Heyssen sailed on the ship Walrus as agent for Samuel Godyn and Samuel Bloenmaert bought on May 5, 1630 and recorded June 3, 1621 16 square miles along the bay of Cape May from 10 indians. One book, History of Cape May County by Lewis Townsend Stevens (1897) gives a translation of the document and says that it at that time was housed in the Hague. Which brings me to my question. How does one go about looking for and requesting documents from the Netherlands? I would appreciate any and all help. Thanks. Laurie Thomas

Hi Dorothy, Thanks, but I've already published this article. This article is located in its own page on my website "Sketches of Seventeenth-Century Hollanders: Seventeenth-Century Persons Who Lived in Holland and North America -- Genealogical and Historical Notes on Their Lives, Families and Activities." The title of the webpage is "Bornstra, De Forest, and Hudde" and it's located here: http://17thcenturyhollanders.pbworks.com/Bornstra,-De-Forest,-and-Hudde I prefer to publish my work online, where it has an unlimited circulation potential. Online articles can be found by anyone, at any time, simply by using a search engine containing any of the names or terms contained in the article. Copy-pasting is also much easier for people to do, thus (I believe) there is more of a chance of my readers getting the information right and disseminated correctly. However, if you wish, you could write a small news article for your upcoming issue of NNC, announcing the publication of this article, containing a very brief synopsis (i.e. the BORNSTRA sisters were from Amsterdam!) and noting that I have published this article online, free of charge. Any announcement should contain the above link to the web page, the title of the page there, my name as author, and my e-mail address. If you choose to make an announcement in NNC concerning this article, I would like to proofread it in advance, before its inclusion in NNC. Thanks again, Liz J On 9 July 2010 12:14, Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Liz,  Would it be all right with you if I published your two > recent posts about the BORNSTRA family and Andries Hudde in my "New > Netherland Connections"?  I know that there are readers of NNC who do > not follow the Dutch-Colonies "traffic" :-). > > Best wishes,  Dorothy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Wybrant Andriesz Bornstra and Gertruyt Pieters family (two daughters married two de Foreest cousins) Translations in these records below are my own --Liz J Records from Stadsarchief Amsterdam Baptisms of Wijbrant Andries (Boornstra) and Geertruyt Pieters family: child: Griet father: Wijbrant Andries mother: Gertruijt Pieters bapt. date: 2 september 1597 church: Hervormd, Nieuwe kerk source: SAA book 38 p.591 remarks: Ber. va. Koopman [[merchant]] wit: _an Pieters child: Pieter father: Wibrant Andriesz mother: Gertruijt Pieters bapt. date: 30 november 1599 church: Hervormd, Nieuwe kerk source: SAA book 38 p.771 wit: Barent Rutgersz child: Giert father: Wijbrant Andries mother: Geerte Pieters bapt. date: 21 april 1602 church: Hervormd, Nieuwe kerk source: SAA book 38 p.942 wit: Pouwel Jans child: Grietje father: Wijbrant Andriesz mother: Geertruij Pieters bapt. date: 24 augustus 1608 church: Hervormd, Oude kerk source: SAA book 4 p.253 remarks: occupation: bode op Dort* wit: Markes Jacobsz * messenger/courier to Dordrecht --EJ child: Klaes father: Wijbrant Andriesz mother: Giertjen Pieters bapt. date: 24 maart 1611 church: Hervormd, Oude kerk source: SAA book 4 p.345 remarks: occupation: Bode op Dort* wit: Hubbert Wert en Markus Jacobsz * messenger/courier to Dordrecht --EJ child: Geertrui father: Wijbrant Andriessen mother: Geertrut Pieters bapt. date: 30 januari 1614 church: Hervormd, Oude kerk source: SAA book 5 p.94 remarks: occupation: Bode* wit: Warnaer Arentsz en Pieter Pietersz * messenger/courier Kwijtschelding (property deeds) index -- Amsterdam: Andriesz, Wijbrant -- house in the Bethaniënstraat 1606 Bornstra, Wijbrant Andriesz --house in the Uilenburg 1623-1625 NOTE --the kwijtschelding index does not indicate whether the transactor was a grantor or a grantee. We have not yet obtained copies of these records. Burials, Amsterdam: Bornstra, Wijbrant Andriesen date of burial: 15-02-1651 burial location: Oude Kerk Begraafregisters voor 1811; NL-SAA-9134127 Bornstra, Pieter date of burial: 10-04-1666 burial location: Wester Kerk Begraafregisters voor 1811; NL-SAA-11184859 NOTE --these source citations from the burial books are NOT correct citations --the actual book and page numbers can be only found by making in-person visits to the SAA. Also NOTE: these burial records are NOT church records. These records come from bookkeeping records kept by the gravedigging companies. Marriage records --Amsterdam In the first two ondertrouw (marriage intentions) records below, a note in the sidebar appears, indicating that these notices were also sent to Leiden. Translations of these records are my own. --EJ Marriage -- Geertruyt Bornstra & Hendrick de Foreest -- 7 June 1636 [SAA acte 444 p. 328] Compareerden als voorn Hendrick de Foreest van Leyden out 30 jaer woont tot Leyden geasststeert met Gerart de Foreest syn oom ter eenne en Geertruyt Bornstra woont opt Nieulant wiens vaders consent te hebben is door de hand van de secretaris Rennier van Neck ter ander syde out 22 jaern Hendrick de Forest Gertruyt @ Bornstra Appeared as above Hendrick de Foreest of Leyden, 30 years old, living at Leyden, assisted with Gerart de Foreest his uncle of the one [side], and Geertruyt Bornstra, living on the Nieulant, whose father's consent is had by the hand of the secretaris Rennier van Neck, of the other side, 22 years old. Hendrick de Forest Gertruyt @ Bornstra [@ indicates a small cartouche before the surname, but signature is hers --EJ]] Same day, same page: Marriage -- Margrieta Bornstra & Crispyn de Foreest -- 7 June 1636 [SAA acte 444 p. 328] Compareerden als voorn Crispyn de Foreest van Leyden woont tot Leyden out 23 jaren geasststeert met Gerrit de Foreest syn vader ter eenen en Margrieta Bornstra wiens vaders consent door de hant van de secretaris gebleken woont opt nieuwelant ter ander syde Crispyn de Forest Margriet Bornstra Appeared as above Crispyn de Foreest of Leyden, living at Leyden, 23 years old assisted with Gerrit de Foreest his father of the one [side], and Margrieta Bornstra, whose father's consent is shown by the hand of the secretary as presented, residing on [the] Nieuwelant, of the other side. Crispyn de Forest Margriet @ Bornstra [@ indicates a small cartouche before the surname, but signature is hers --EJ]] Marriage -- Geertruyt Bornstra & Andries Hudde -- 6 Jan. 1639 -- acte 450 p. 33 Compareerden als voorn Andries Huddens van Campen out 30 jaer geassist met Denis Otth_ zyn __ woont inde Princenstraet, & Geertrujt* Borrenstrae van A, out 24 jaer geasst met Weybrant Andriesz haer father: woont inde S?antstraet A Hudde Geertruyt @ Bornstra * [in sidebar] weduwe van Hendrick de Foreest Appeared as above Andries Huddens of Campen 30 years old, assisted with Denis Otth_ his __, living in the Princenstraet, & Geertrujt* Borrenstrae van A[msterdam], 24 years old assisted with Weybrant Andriesz her father, living in the S?antstraet A Hudde Geertruyt @ Bornstra [@ indicates a small cartouche before the surname, but signature is hers --EJ]] * [in sidebar] widow of Hendrick de Foreest Records from Regional Archief Leiden DTB index (translated EJ): Marriages (see also records of Amsterdam): Bridegroom: Heyndrick de Foreest, Leyden Bride: Geertruyt Bornstra, living at Amsterdam Location: Leiden Date of banns: 09-06-1636 Remarks: Bride: not represented. Attestation has been provided [[from Amsterdam]]. Bridegroom: Chrispijn de Foreest, Leyden Bride: Margriete Bornstra, living at Amsterdam Location: Leiden Date of banns: 09-06-1636 Remarks: Bride: not represented. Attestation has been provided [[from Amsterdam]]. [both records above: DTB Leiden Nederlands Hervormd Ondertrouw (1575-1795), folio L - 212v] Baptisms in Leiden: Child: Gerryt father: Crispyn de Foreest, wits: Gerryt de Foreest, Wibrandt Andriesz Bornstra, Hester de Foreest, Geertruyt Pieters Location: Leiden Bapt. date: 18-06-1637 DTB Leiden Dopen NH Pieterskerk Child: Margarita father: Crispyn des Forests mother: Margarita Forests wits: Wibrant Andries Bornstra, David du Toyt, Geertruyt Pieters, Susanna de la Grange Location: Leiden Bapt. date: 30-07-1638 DTB Leiden Dopen NH Pieterskerk Child: Agnees father: Crispyn de Foreest mother: Marguerite Bornstra wits: Pieter de la Grange, Coenrad Melique, Geertruyd Rutgers, Esther du Toict Location: Leiden Bapt. date: 08-10-1642 DTB Leiden Dopen NH Hooglandsche Kerk Child: Hester father: Crispijn de Foré mother: Margareta Bornstra wits: Barent van Casteel, Hester de Foré, Maijcke Kellenaer, Dina Palings Location: Leiden Bapt. date: 01-03-1650 DTB Leiden Dopen NH Hooglandsche Kerk

Hi all, Recently I did some work on one Delaware family -- Wybrech Jans who married Barent Hendricks, then Jan Siericks, and third John Walker the younger. Wybrech's daughter Agneitje Barents was married to Rutgert Hudde, Andries Hudde's the youngest child. After this work I backtracked in search of Dutch records on Andries Hudde and his first wife, Geertruyt Bornstra, and of her sister Margrieta. Margrieta Bornstra married Crispyn de Foreest of Leiden in 1636, and on the same day her sister Geertruyt Bornstra married Crispyn's cousin Hendrick de Foreest of Leiden, who died aboard the ship "Rensselaerwyck" during its July 1637 voyage to Manhattan from the Virginias. Geertruyt Bornstra married second in 1639 (banns in Amsterdam) to Andries Hudde(n), born 1608, who lived in New Amsterdam, where he served as councillor and as surveyor-general. After 1645 he served in several positions in the Delaware, including commis at Ft. Nassau, and held positions at Ft. Casimir and New Amstel. Andries Hudde died of a fever on 4 November 1663 at his plantation along Drawyer's Creek in the Appoquinimink region of Delaware [Delaware Papers Dutch (Gehring), 337], leaving a second wife "Geertie" and their two-year-old son Rutgert, later known as Richard Hudden. Rutgert Hudden, baptized on 26 June 1661 in New Amsterdam, was not Geertruyt Bornstra's son. Geertruyt Bornstra had died before 31 July, 1657, which is known since Jacob Alrichs shortly thereafter acknowledged Peter Stuyvesant's written approval of Andries Hudde's request to remarry [PA Arch II, 7:512]. Rutgert Hudde was Andries Hudde's child with his second wife, coincidentally called "Geertie," whose parents are not yet known. After Andries Hudde's death, she married second to Cornelis Jorissen who died in 1678, and third to Gerrit Otto(sen), who had arrived at New Amstel on "der Purmerlander Kerck" on 3 Feb. 1662. Gerrit Otto served as a justice on the New Castle court from 1676 to 1682, and died in 1684. This "Geertie" died as the widow of Gerrit Otto, between February and June, 1685. [Records of the Court of New Castle on Delaware, 2:169]. Further information on the BORNSTRA Family Many people probably have the two BORNSTRA sisters in their genealogical databases. Several databases including these two women can be found online. But there has been a myth perpetuated for at least the last 120 years concerning the origins of these two Bornstra sisters, which now proves to be incorrect. In Riker's 1904 Revised History of Harlem pp. 89-90 < http://books.google.com/books?id=e38MAAAAYAAJ > and in his earlier work, Harlem (City of New York): Its Origin and Early Annals (pub. 1881), p. 100 < http://books.google.com/books?id=0m4UAAAAYAAJ > is a discussion of the Bornstra sisters, their husbands and in-laws, and their plans for coming to the Dutch colonies in North America. But these are a few problems in his treatment of the Bornstra family --notably an incorrect birthplace for the Bornstra sisters! No clue how this idea came to Riker, but here are the misconceptions I found in and as a result of the Riker discussions, that need revision: 1. The Bornstra sisters were absolutely not from Friesland. They were born, baptized, and raised in Amsterdam, of parents who had six children baptized in Amsterdam. Their father's name can be found in property deeds of Amsterdam. Banns for their marriages were published in June 1636 in Amsterdam for the two Bornstra--de Foreest marriages, and the later Bornstra--Hudde marriage, all of which indicate these women were from Amsterdam. Cor Snabel obtained their marriage records from the Stadsarchief of Amsterdam, which we transcribed and I translated. The Regional Archief Leiden also gives the hometown of the Bornstra sisters as Amsterdam. Banns were published there shortly after their publication in Amsterdam, since their fiancees, Hendrick and Crispyn de Foreest, lived in Leiden. 2. "Secretary van Neck" who signed off on the father's consent for the two sisters' marriages, was also from Amsterdam, and not from a place called "Nieuwlant" in Friesland. Indeed he was Secretaris Reynier (Simonsz) van Neck, baptized in the Oude kerk of Amsterdam on 4 Feb. 1582, who died in 1654 in Amsterdam. He was first a zijdelakenkoper (merchant dealing in a type of silk fabric), but later held the official position of Secretaris van huwelijkse zaken (Marital Affairs) in Amsterdam. This office was responsible for checking people's marriage credentials --ages and eligibility to marry, attestations from other cities, permissions from parents or guardians, etc. The Bornstra sisters had a written letter of permission to marry from their father, Wybrant Andries Bornstra, in lieu of his physical presence at the office, since he was a courier travelling to and from Dordrecht, a city in Zuid-Holland, located south of Rotterdam. Secretary van Neck's office had examined and approved Wybrant Andries Bornstra's letter of permission. 3. The place '''t Nieuwelant' in the Bornstra sisters' marriage records of 1636 probably reflects a recently established suburb of Amsterdam, later engulfed as the city expanded around and beyond it. The toponym ''t Nieuwelant' (translated as 'the new land') is a widely-used generic term. At different times, this term was a toponym referring to various and sundry places in the Netherlands. A location called 't Nieuwelant' was usually a newly-established polder which had recently been diked, dried out, finished and built upon. Until it had a better name, this recently-created location was simply called ''t Nieuwelant.' At Amsterdam circa 1600, this would have been an outlying area, similar to what we think of today as a suburb. The process of land creation is still happening today --see the coast of Friesland in google maps, which reveals many new dikes, pump stations, and even the pipelines that carry the water out to sea. These emerging polders are becoming the newest of the new lands. Jan Schellinger aboard the 1637 voyage of the "Rensselaerwyck" wrote to his wife in January, during the time the ship was held in port at Ilfracombe, England. The address he gives for his wife's residence is "outside the riggeliers pooert at the ossemaerckt in the nieiuetuin at Amsterdam" [Van Rensselaer Bowier manuscripts, p. 347]. The 'nieuwetuin' indicates that this location is, or recently was, a place where gardens had been made, near the Regulierspoort (along the Amstel River). At the time this letter was written, this was near the edge of the city, but now, of course, it's quite in the middle. Probably 't Nieuwelant, location of the Bornstra residence in 1636, was similarly at the edge of the city. Records of the Bornstra family In a message immediately following this one, I am posting sets of marriage, baptism and burial records for the family of Wybrant Andries Bornstra and his wife Geertruyt Pieters, from Dutch records. In two of the baptism records, Wybrant Andries was called "bode op Dort" which means he was a 'messenger' or 'courier' who travelled between Amsterdam and Dordrecht. His earlier occupation was recorded simply as Koopman --merchant. As the marriage documents reveal, the Bornstra sisters sign with their surname, BORNSTRA. Baptismal records that I obtained from the Stadsarchief of Amsterdam for these sisters and their siblings, born between 1597 and 1614, follow below, including names of the baptismal witnesses. In the baptism records, the father is known as Wybrant Andries, but by 1623, property records indicate that the family surname had become Bornstra. With thanks to Cor Snabel who obtained the three Bornstra marriage records, assisted in transcribing, and who helped demystify the "myth" of Nieuwelant, and who as usual did a stellar job of proofreading my work. Best wishes, Liz J

Dear Liz, Would it be all right with you if I published your two recent posts about the BORNSTRA family and Andries Hudde in my "New Netherland Connections"? I know that there are readers of NNC who do not follow the Dutch-Colonies "traffic" :-). Best wishes, Dorothy

You mention the "Van Schouw" project, and possible connections to the Wyckoff family (through a common ancestor). Please keep us posted on that ... as a descendant of Pieterje Claeson, daughter of Claes Cornelis (van Schouw) through her marriage to Sijmon Jansen van Arsdalen, I am among the researchers who worked hard to separate out the two families by tediously separating the paper trails and early confusion between Pieterje Claesen and the Wyckoff family. It will be most interesting to see if DNA evidence supports our work, or stands it on its head! Best of luck to you, and I hope you get great participation. Bryce Stevens > Terry will need no help at all. He has been doing this for a long time. I > met him in the early years when Y-DNA testing was still in its pioneer > phase. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. > > Nora > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Ann Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Actually, Terry Barton [[email protected]] is the administrator of >> the >> project. I am hoping to get the word out on this project because of the >> possible connection to the VanSchouw project. But thank you anyway and a >> big >> thanks to Terry Barton!!!!! >> Annie Peterson Johnson >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello fellow Dutch Colonies researchers I'm excited to announce two more completed books in my series on New Netherland Settlers at http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/published.shtml New Netherland Settlers. A Walloon in New Amsterdam: The Story of Adriaen Vincent and his Wife Madaleen Eloy. by Lorine McGinnis Schulze published June 2010. Coil bound 8.5x11. 94 p ISBN: 978-0-9680744-8-0 Adriaen Vincent and his wife Madaleen were Walloons, meaning French speaking protestants from Belgium, who settled in New Netherland in its early days. Adriaen was accused in court of being a bigamist and I hoped that research in Amsterdam records would reveal the truth. Thus my search in available Amsterdam records began. Some of the mysteries were solved. Others were not. This book is the result of my Amsterdam research. New facts were found about Adriaen and his wife (including her full name), and the baptisms of children in Amsterdam were discovered. These are fully explained in the book and images of records are provided for interested descendants. Information about Adriaen and his family in New Amsterdam is also included and I hope that descendants will enjoy their story as much as I enjoyed researching it. The book also straightens out the confusion in two Vincent families - Adriaen Vincent and Francis Vincent (and his siblings). Researchers have confused the two for years and have assigned children to Adriaen that are not his. Proof of family relationships is provided and all sources are footnoted. It is 94 pages set in the historical context of the early Dutch settlement in New Netherland (now New York). The history of New Netherland, customs, religious practices, and settlement of Fort Orange (Albany) are discussed in depth. An explanation of the patronymic system of naming, the barter system of paying for goods and the English translation of common Dutch words used in church records is also provided. See http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/surnames/vincent.shtml ************* The second book is New Netherland Settlers: The Stevensen and Jacobsen Families. A genealogy to three generations of the descendants of Maria Goosens and her husband Steven Janse Coning who settled in Fort Orange in 1649 (Stevensen Family) and Maria Goosens and a man named Jacob (Jacobszen Family) . published June 2010. 8.5x11 Coil bound. 154 p. ISBN: 978-0-9680744-7-3 See http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/surnames/stevensen.shtml A brief excerpt from my book New Netherland Settlers: The Stevensen and Jacobsen Familes was previously published as The European Origins of Steven Janse Coning in the December 2001, Vol. 6 No. 4 issue of New Netherland Connections. My book completes several years of research into the origins and descendants of Steven Janse Coning who was baptized in 1617 in Nijkerk and settled in New Netherland with his wife Maria Goosens circa 1649. By 1663 Steven and Maria had at least 7, possibly 8 children. After their divorce in 1663 Steven and Maria married other spouses, and Maria had one more known child born to a man named Jacob whose surname is unknown. This book follows Steven, Maria and their descendants to three generations. The book is 154 pages fully sourced and footnoted. Six full pages of original documents from Nijkerk are included as well as maps. Steven and Maria's lives are set in the historical context of the fascinating world of the early settlement of New Netherland. Steven's newly discovered origins and names of his parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and siblings are documented and sourced. His family's suffering when the Bubonic plague struck Nijkerk in 1636 when Steven was only 18 years old is well documented and included in the book. Lorine -- Follow my genealogy updates on Twitter http://twitter.com/LorineMS Olive Tree Genealogy http://olivetreegenealogy.com

Yes, it will prove to be a fruitful study of this we are sure, please spread the word for male Wyckoff/Wycoff descendants that the study is now available and to include a paper trail as far as possible. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of BStevens Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 2:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Wyckoff/Wycoff DNA study up and running You mention the "Van Schouw" project, and possible connections to the Wyckoff family (through a common ancestor). Please keep us posted on that ... as a descendant of Pieterje Claeson, daughter of Claes Cornelis (van Schouw) through her marriage to Sijmon Jansen van Arsdalen, I am among the researchers who worked hard to separate out the two families by tediously separating the paper trails and early confusion between Pieterje Claesen and the Wyckoff family. It will be most interesting to see if DNA evidence supports our work, or stands it on its head! Best of luck to you, and I hope you get great participation. Bryce Stevens > Terry will need no help at all. He has been doing this for a long time. I > met him in the early years when Y-DNA testing was still in its pioneer > phase. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. > > Nora > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Ann Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Actually, Terry Barton [[email protected]] is the administrator of >> the >> project. I am hoping to get the word out on this project because of the >> possible connection to the VanSchouw project. But thank you anyway and a >> big >> thanks to Terry Barton!!!!! >> Annie Peterson Johnson >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Terry will need no help at all. He has been doing this for a long time. I met him in the early years when Y-DNA testing was still in its pioneer phase. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Nora On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Ann Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Actually, Terry Barton [[email protected]] is the administrator of > the > project. I am hoping to get the word out on this project because of the > possible connection to the VanSchouw project. But thank you anyway and a > big > thanks to Terry Barton!!!!! > Annie Peterson Johnson > >

Ann, Congratulations on your Wyckoff DNA project. I run 2 projects right now, so if you have any questions please feel free to ask. Nora On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Ann Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > One-name study, Wyckoff is up and running now for those whose male > descendants who carry the name Wyckoff (various spellings). You may access > the study at . http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Wyckoff. > Need to get the word out and get this study going. > > > >

Actually, Terry Barton [[email protected]] is the administrator of the project. I am hoping to get the word out on this project because of the possible connection to the VanSchouw project. But thank you anyway and a big thanks to Terry Barton!!!!! Annie Peterson Johnson -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nora Probasco Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 7:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Wyckoff/Wycoff DNA study up and running Ann, Congratulations on your Wyckoff DNA project. I run 2 projects right now, so if you have any questions please feel free to ask. Nora On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Ann Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > One-name study, Wyckoff is up and running now for those whose male > descendants who carry the name Wyckoff (various spellings). You may access > the study at . http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Wyckoff. > Need to get the word out and get this study going. > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One-name study, Wyckoff is up and running now for those whose male descendants who carry the name Wyckoff (various spellings). You may access the study at . http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Wyckoff. Need to get the word out and get this study going. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/wyckoff/results