Wonderful discussion! Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the opposite was a disaster. I have a question: In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting legal prosecution. Fascinating. I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the Hudson." Nancy Terhune Descendant of Grietje through three of her children ----- Original Message ----- From: Firth Fabend <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > Dear Listers, > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on my > i-phone > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of what > I wanted > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > the lights > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > stableenvironment. > > I have six points to remark upon. > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > But, she > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > this: "Boys below > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may not > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > and twenty, and > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > of them > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > Dutch Law, yes, > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > along with > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > court to > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such a > woman, I > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > gumption to do > so. > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > land, such > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > married Herman > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > appears, no > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > land upon > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of the > 200-acre > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > subdivided among > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up in an > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > website or > through my Wikipedia entry. > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > Grietje Cosyns, and > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > when she > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > She went to > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > described as > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > doesn't say she sent > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim facts > are what > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as to > her age. > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > her having > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at this > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would mean > she lived until > c. 1731. > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" them. > No way. I was not > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > INFORM those > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want to be > informed. > > Thanks for listening. > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations hence > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dorothy, I did send out a request to the NEHGS this morning. A copy went to your e-mail as well. I'll let you all know of the reply when it comes. Chris Chester On Jun 04, 2011, at 08:11 AM, Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Holly and All, First of all, it is just grand to see this > Dutch-Colonies list wake up from its recent deep coma :-)! It gives > me joy to know that the trusty regulars are all out there as their > familiar names pop up in my inbox. > > Note that "In January 2008 I freely granted "exclusive permission to > allow NEHGS to electronically publish New Netherland Connections on > the NEHGS website..." > > If anyone wants to propose to the Society that they make a CD > available, the appropriate person to contact at the New England > Historic Genealogical Society is Thomas Wilcox, Chief Operating > Officer, NEHGS. > > Tom's email address is [email protected] > > Dorothy > > > >I should think a great deal depends on the geography of our ancestors. > >Certainly, based on my mother's early NY Dutch colonial lines I would be > >able to justify NEHGS membership. I am a member because my paternal > >grandfather's lines go back into the early 1700's and the 1600's of New > >England. Even so, I would love to be able to purchase a CD of the complete > >NNC. > > > >Holly Timm > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara de Mare > >Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:00 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC > > > >Hi Dorothy, > > > >I am thrilled to have them available on NEHGS. Anyone who says they have no > >other reason to join obviously doesn't know about all the benefits of NEHGS > >and its fabulous library and website. NNC is just one more of their > >excellent data bases. > > > >Barbara > > > >Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. > >Attorney, historian, genealogist, grandmother > >155 Polifly Road > >Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 > > > >(201) 567-9440 office > >http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > >From: Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> > >To: [email protected] > >Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 7:33:16 PM > >Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC > > > >Dear Chris and All, Yes, volumes 1-12 have been available for some time I > >recently spoke to the folks at NEHGS, and they said that they are working on > >indexing volumes 13-15 (which will complete the whole set) and that they > >will be posted to the database as soon as possible. > > > >Dorothy > > > >>Terry, > >> > >>The NEHGS has made available volumes 1 thru 12 of NNC, to members, at > >>their website, www.americanancestors.org > >> > >>I do have digitized copies in PDF format here at home and send them to > >>your e-mail address shortly. > >> > >>Volumes 13, 14 and 15, have not yet been added to the NEHGS's online > >>collection. (Not sure what the hold up is, Vol. 12 was placed online > >>more than two years ago). > >> > >>Chris Chester > >>On Jun 2, 2011, at 3:30 PM, THJ wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Dorothy, > >>> > >>> Hope you are keeping well! I'm still pursuing the van der Hoeven > >>> family and wonder if you might still have the following articles > >>>from > >>> NNC. I'm happy to pay for copies and postage. > >>> Abstracts from Notarial Documents in the Amsterdam Archives by Pim > >>> Nieuwenhuis published in New Netherland Connections in series Vol. > >>> 4:3,4; Vol. 5:1-3 > >>> > >>> Grateful thanks > >>> > >>> > >>> Terry Haslam-Jones > >>> Rossendale > >>> England > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>[email protected] > >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>> the body of the message > >> > >> > >>------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Listers -- Such a great conversation and it IS good to see the Dutch-Colonies List "come alive" again. I just knew you were all out there lurking :-) According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine <[email protected] >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn Gerritsen -- Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the late Evert Reijers. both of Putten. Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives. So, if they were married in 1631, there is plenty of time for some children to have been born in the Netherlands before the couple came to New York. In fact, it would be unusual if there were no children born before 1640 (the date of the first baptism of a child for them in the NYC Ref Ch). I'm mentioning this because if this marriage date is, indeed, accurate, I think it gives us a new view of the "timeline" and bolsters the idea that Margariet/Grietje may have been born a few years before her 1641 baptism in New Amsterdam. I still think it's very possible that she may have been left in the care of relatives in the Netherlands when her parents came to New Netherland, and made the voyage at some point before 1641 to the new world (either with her mother or with another relative). We know her mother, Vrouwtje, made at least one voyage back to the Netherlands, and even though it was an arduous trip in those times, it's possible she made other voyages back and forth. I'm still having trouble with the idea (even if it WAS technically legal) of a 12-13 year old girl marrying. Even if we can bump her age at marriage up a couple of years, she would still be quite a "precocious" girl, and quite remarkable, actually. But then, it amazes me how well our colonial Dutch ancestors managed, lived, and prospered (and sometimes how long some of them lived) in what must have been conditions we today would consider very difficult. Just to make the voyage here indicates an amazing spirit of adventure, strength and resolve! Pat On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in > 1641. > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > theory. > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of > her birth date or age at any given time. > > Pat > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five >> children >> baptized in NA DRChurch. >> >> Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje >> Gerrits: >> Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May >> 1640. >> New Amsterdam DRCh. >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. >> [NYDC >> 2:10] >> Married: Belitje Quick >> Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, >> Rachel >> Vigne. >> Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See >> below. >> (3) Daniel DeClark. >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys >> vr., >> Cornelis Corneliszen. >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, >> Geertje >> Koerten. >> Married: Andries Jeuriaensz >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje >> Cornelis. >> >> This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who >> married >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in >> 1662 >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. >> >> * * A Brief Timeline on >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * >> >> >> >> >> 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp >> 5 May >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] >> >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen >> VanZell >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] >> The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. >> >> 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA >> v2:160] >> >> Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also >> let it >> stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for >> the >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. >> says, pltf’s >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from >> her >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent >> any further >> damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. >> Parties >> being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was >> justified to >> bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s >> demand is >> dismissed. >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA >> V1:352,353] >> EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married >> woman of >> one year, four months. >> Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that >> legal? Why >> isn't her husband with her or >> mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' >> and >> "her land" Did she own land? >> It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. >> >> 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. >> The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. >> >> Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible >> record]. She has seven children. >> >> 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC >> 1:56] >> No issue. >> -------------------------- >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected >> researchers >> on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, >> wills, >> church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that >> a child >> 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April >> 1654 and >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' >> >> It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her >> brother >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be >> about 16/17 at >> marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a >> child >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name >> another child >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. >> >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay >> Konight >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

I've been following this discussion and I agree it's good to see so much activity on the DL again. I am not a descendant of this couple but the discussion as raised some good information about marriageable age in New Netherland and the independence and free spirit of a mere 'woman'. Our Dutch ancestors were different than we are and rose to the occasion regardless of age or gender. My comment however is on the marriage Pat mentioned that was discovered at Putten for a Cosijn Gerrits to a Maijken Everts. I had to read her post a couple of times because I don't see this the marriage of the couple being discussed. The comment was made that Vroutje may be a nickname for 'little wife' and her name was something else. I disagree. Vroutje and Vrouwken were common first names so equating Vroutje Gerrits as Maijken Everts is highly unlikely. I checked the Putten marriage ondertrouwen and the marriage listing is as it was published and while the first name Cosijn is rather uncommon, if this is the Cosijn Gerritsen of New Netherland I would think this is a prior marriage for him and not the marriage of the wife who was with him in New Netherland. In checking the Putten RDC baptisms from 1631 to 1639, I found no children baptised for this couple although the closest match was in 1638 for a Jochem son of 'Goosen' Gerrits of Putten. I would have to assume that Cosijn may have been born at Putten but likely married Vroutje at some other location. I also took a quick glance at the baptisms from 1601-1630 and I didn't find the baptism for a Cosijn son of a Gerrit. Unfortunately many of the baptisms only record the baptism of a 'kynt' or child with no name making the task harder. I did find a Gerrit Jansen as the father of baptised children but some had no first name. Personally, I wouldn't accept the marriage intentions given as the marriage for Cosjin and Vroutje although I wouldn't rule it out as an earlier marriage for Cosijn. I think you will just have to look in some other location for a marriage for Cosijn to Vroutje. Chris Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Pat & Walter Wardell <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi Listers -- > > Such a great conversation and it IS good to see the Dutch-Colonies > List "come alive" again. I just knew you were all out there lurking :-) > > According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine < > [email protected] > >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn > Gerritsen -- > > Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim > Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, > son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the late > Evert Reijers. both of Putten. > > Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list > suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the > "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." > > The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives. > > So, if they were married in 1631, there is plenty of time for some > children to have been born in the Netherlands before the couple came > to New York. In fact, it would be unusual if there were no children > born before 1640 (the date of the first baptism of a child for them in > the NYC Ref Ch). > > I'm mentioning this because if this marriage date is, indeed, > accurate, I think it gives us a new view of the "timeline" and > bolsters the idea that Margariet/Grietje may have been born a few > years before her 1641 baptism in New Amsterdam. I still think it's > very possible that she may have been left in the care of relatives in > the Netherlands when her parents came to New Netherland, and made the > voyage at some point before 1641 to the new world (either with her > mother or with another relative). We know her mother, Vrouwtje, made > at least one voyage back to the Netherlands, and even though it was an > arduous trip in those times, it's possible she made other voyages back > and forth. > > I'm still having trouble with the idea (even if it WAS technically > legal) of a 12-13 year old girl marrying. Even if we can bump her age > at marriage up a couple of years, she would still be quite a > "precocious" girl, and quite remarkable, actually. But then, it amazes > me how well our colonial Dutch ancestors managed, lived, and prospered > (and sometimes how long some of them lived) in what must have been > conditions we today would consider very difficult. Just to make the > voyage here indicates an amazing spirit of adventure, strength and > resolve! > > Pat > > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > > > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years > > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a > > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age > > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm > > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in > > 1641. > > > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first > > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought > > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in > > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > > theory. > > > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of > > her birth date or age at any given time. > > > > Pat > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > >> children > >> baptized in NA DRChurch. > >> > >> Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje > >> Gerrits: > >> Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May > >> 1640. > >> New Amsterdam DRCh. > >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > >> [NYDC > >> 2:10] > >> Married: Belitje Quick > >> Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > >> Amsterdam > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > >> Rachel > >> Vigne. > >> Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > >> below. > >> (3) Daniel DeClark. > >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > >> Amsterdam > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys > >> vr., > >> Cornelis Corneliszen. > >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > >> Amsterdam > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, > >> Geertje > >> Koerten. > >> Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > >> Amsterdam > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > >> Cornelis. > >> > >> This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > >> married > >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in > >> 1662 > >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > >> > >> * * A Brief Timeline on > >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp > >> 5 May > >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > >> > >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > >> VanZell > >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > >> The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > >> > >> 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > >> v2:160] > >> > >> Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also > >> let it > >> stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for > >> the > >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. > >> says, pltf’s > >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from > >> her > >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent > >> any further > >> damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. > >> Parties > >> being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > >> justified to > >> bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s > >> demand is > >> dismissed. > >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > >> V1:352,353] > >> EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > >> woman of > >> one year, four months. > >> Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > >> legal? Why > >> isn't her husband with her or > >> mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' > >> and > >> "her land" Did she own land? > >> It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > >> > >> 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > >> The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > >> > >> Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > >> record]. She has seven children. > >> > >> 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC > >> 1:56] > >> No issue. > >> -------------------------- > >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > >> researchers > >> on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, > >> wills, > >> church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that > >> a child > >> 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > >> 1654 and > >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > >> > >> It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her > >> brother > >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje > >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be > >> about 16/17 at > >> marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a > >> child > >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > >> another child > >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > >> > >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > >> Konight > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >> the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri 816-363-1831

I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine Willemse Cornel. Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of William Prikket both res. Ulster. Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731-1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. Judy Cassidy Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Wonderful discussion! Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the opposite was a disaster. I have a question: In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting legal prosecution. Fascinating. I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the Hudson." Nancy Terhune Descendant of Grietje through three of her children ----- Original Message ----- From: Firth Fabend Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > Dear Listers, > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on my > i-phone > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of what > I wanted > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > the lights > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > stableenvironment. > > I have six points to remark upon. > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > But, she > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > this: "Boys below > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may not > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > and twenty, and > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > of them > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > Dutch Law, yes, > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > along with > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > court to > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such a > woman, I > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > gumption to do > so. > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > land, such > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > married Herman > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > appears, no > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > land upon > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of the > 200-acre > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > subdivided among > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up in an > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > website or > through my Wikipedia entry. > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > Grietje Cosyns, and > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > when she > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > She went to > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > described as > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > doesn't say she sent > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim facts > are what > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as to > her age. > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > her having > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at this > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would mean > she lived until > c. 1731. > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" them. > No way. I was not > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > INFORM those > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want to be > informed. > > Thanks for listening. > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations hence > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Listers, Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on my i-phone during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of what I wanted to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before the lights dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more stable environment. I have six points to remark upon. 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. But, she was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo Grotio, 17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote this: "Boys below the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may not marry." And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five and twenty, and young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one of them alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, could appear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman Dutch Law, yes, she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, along with them in court. There are many instances in which women went to court to defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such a woman, I believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and gumption to do so. 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned land, such as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje married Herman van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it appears, no documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some land upon marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of the 200-acre Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was subdivided among the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up in an article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my website or through my Wikipedia entry. 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of Grietje as "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of Grietje Cosyns, and I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married when she wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. She went to court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is described as having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her buckwheat fields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record doesn't say she sent home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim facts are what we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as to her age. She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to her having died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at this moment, but I did come across it this past week!! So that would mean she lived until c. 1731. 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my publications that refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" them. No way. I was not advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to INFORM those who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want to be informed. Thanks for listening. Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations hence

I don't know why this came out garbled in my original query. Resending because I think it is important to see how Margariet fits in with her siblings. Trying one more time. Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje Gerrits Child:Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May 1640. New Amsterdam DRCh. Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. [NYDC 2:10] Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New Amsterdam DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, Rachel Vigne. Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New Amsterdam DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys vr., Cornelis Corneliszen. Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New Amsterdam DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje Koerten. Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New Amsterdam DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje Cornelis Ethel Kay Konight

A 32-year career of childbearing is easily possible. Even if a woman has her first child at eighteen, 32 years later she would only be 50, which is rather a minimum age for menopause. While childbearing at age 50 may perhaps be undesirable, it's not inconceivable, so to speak. Liz J On 4 June 2011 18:13, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for including info on the Harry Macy article on my  ancestors > Aeltje Braconie and Maria Badie in the  NYGBR 142  (2011):21.  Will check that > out at the library tomorrow.   Yes,  from my records, Magdalena Verdon had > fifteen children between 1646 and  1678,  oooh,  that's 32 child bearing years. >  Every  woman reading this has the same thoughts.  Unprintable.  Per my > records, 14 children survived and left descendants. The fifteenth child, > Daniel, was named in father's will dated 1692/93 but I have nothing  further in > my records.   I have not seen the article but I  see where Harry Macy is > probably  coming from and reached  the conclusion that she was probably aged > 13 at marriage.  Must check  Google to see the age of  oldest woman to give > birth to a  child. > > Best regards,   Ethel Kay Konight > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > In a message dated 6/4/2011  [email protected] writes: > > Regarding the apparent age of 12y 11m for Margriet at the time of  her > first marriage, I would add for your consideration the article,  "Some > New Light on Aeltje Braconie and Maria Badie," by Harry Macy,  Jr., > published in NYGBR 142 (2011):21, in which he states the case  for > Magdalena Verdon being only age 13 at the time of her marriage  on 21 > March 1645 (RDC New Amsterdam). > > Although, there is no  baptism record for Magdalena, and her age of 13 > is based upon the  assumption that she gave birth to a son, Daniel, in > 1678, the  article does accept the premise that a girl could be married > as  young as 13 during the earlier part of the 17th century in New > Netherland, when it was governed by the Dutch. > > If nothing else, the  point here, is that a marriage of a girl at the > young age of 13, is  within the realm of the possible for Margriet's > time and  place. > > Regards, > Chris Chester

Hi Chris, Thanks for including info on the Harry Macy article on my ancestors Aeltje Braconie and Maria Badie in the NYGBR 142 (2011):21. Will check that out at the library tomorrow. Yes, from my records, Magdalena Verdon had fifteen children between 1646 and 1678, oooh, that's 32 child bearing years. Every woman reading this has the same thoughts. Unprintable. Per my records, 14 children survived and left descendants. The fifteenth child, Daniel, was named in father's will dated 1692/93 but I have nothing further in my records. I have not seen the article but I see where Harry Macy is probably coming from and reached the conclusion that she was probably aged 13 at marriage. Must check Google to see the age of oldest woman to give birth to a child. Best regards, Ethel Kay Konight = = = = = = = = = = = = In a message dated 6/4/2011 [email protected] writes: Regarding the apparent age of 12y 11m for Margriet at the time of her first marriage, I would add for your consideration the article, "Some New Light on Aeltje Braconie and Maria Badie," by Harry Macy, Jr., published in NYGBR 142 (2011):21, in which he states the case for Magdalena Verdon being only age 13 at the time of her marriage on 21 March 1645 (RDC New Amsterdam). Although, there is no baptism record for Magdalena, and her age of 13 is based upon the assumption that she gave birth to a son, Daniel, in 1678, the article does accept the premise that a girl could be married as young as 13 during the earlier part of the 17th century in New Netherland, when it was governed by the Dutch. If nothing else, the point here, is that a marriage of a girl at the young age of 13, is within the realm of the possible for Margriet's time and place. Regards, Chris Chester On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > children > baptized in NA DRChurch. > > Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje > Gerrits: > Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May > 1640. > New Amsterdam DRCh. > Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > [NYDC > 2:10] > Married: Belitje Quick > Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > Rachel > Vigne. > Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > below. > (3) Daniel DeClark. > Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys > vr., > Cornelis Corneliszen. > Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje > Koerten. > Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > Cornelis. > > This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > married > (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in > 1662 > (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > * * A Brief Timeline on > Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > > > > 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp > 5 May > 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > VanZell > 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > v2:160] > > Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also > let it > stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for > the > horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. > says, pltf’s > horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from > her > land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent > any further > damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. > Parties > being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > justified to > bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s > demand is > dismissed. > Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > V1:352,353] > EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > woman of > one year, four months. > Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > legal? Why > isn't her husband with her or > mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' > and > "her land" Did she own land? > It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > record]. She has seven children. > > 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC 1:56] > No issue. > -------------------------- > There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > researchers > on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, > wills, > church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that > a child > 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > 1654 and > married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her > brother > Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje > Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be > about 16/17 at > marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a > child > Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > another child > Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > Konight >

> She is a character in my historical novel Land So Fair (2008) and in my historical poem A Catch of Grandmothers, now in its > third printing. Along with A Dutch Family in the Middle Colonies (Rutgers U Press), all available on Amazon. I had understood, that according to the rules of RootsWeb.com, content submitted for the purpose of advertising was prohibited. Sent from my laptop Cor Snabel

I agree with Pat: an 11 or 12 year-old bride does seem quite a bit too young, whether or not it was allowed under law. I would like to hear more about Firth's description of Margriet as '"precocious" in more ways than one'. It's easy to explain away an apparent very-young marriage (engagement?), but is there any substantial reality behind the myth? Pat's response makes me wonder. An earlier message (2005) by EKK concerning Cozyn Gerritzen discusses two Powers of Attorney he issued. The first POA issued was dated 28 March 1640. "Power of attorney from Cosyn Gerritsen from Putten to his brother Aert Gerritsen to collect a legacy from his aunt Susanna..." Ethel's 2005 message here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Dutch-Colonies/2005-11/1132086236 In May 1640, Cosyn Gerritsen & wife Vrouwtie baptize son Gerrit. So clearly Cozyn and wife couldn't/wouldn't want to travel back to Holland at this time, even to collect an inheritance from his Anut Susanna. Presumably Cozyn is busy working in New Netherland (he appears on Manatus map, etc). Therefore he sends his brother to collect for him. Probably the brother also had about the same coming to him from Aunt Susan, too. Margriet Cosyns seems to be marrying considerably earlier than any siblings of hers I could find in a casual search of NA marriages & baptisms. Are the names of her children substantially different than the names of the children of her siblings? Could Margariet Cozyns possibly be a voorkind --a child of an earlier marriage of Cosyn? In March 1640, since Cosyn Gerritsen & wife Vrouwtie are now settled at New Amsterdam, perhaps they have asked his brother not only to collect Cozyn's inheritance, but also to bring his older daughter back to New Amsterdam? Could the baptism of Margariet Cozyns be taking place because she was originally baptized as a Roman Catholic, maybe? Or possibly to cement her position in the family? Whatever became of the brother, Aert Gerritsen? Did he ever return to New Netherland, or not? If he did leave a paper trail in N-N after 1641 (after baptism of Margrietje) then it might make a stronger case for my scenario here. Although, he does not appear as a baptism witness for the other children of Cosyn and Vrouwtje. Plus, Cozyn had to make another attempt to collect his inheritance from Aunt Susie in 1649. It would certainly be interesting to see if church records of Putten are available. Even notarial acts from that region might turn up something useful, especially since testaments of married couples often appear in notarial records, and testaments of persons about to embark on voyages also appear in these records. Church records from Putten don't seem to appear online in a digital format. It would probably require a physical visit to whatever archive holds records from there. This effort might be more difficult than simply accepting the idea that Margriet Cozyn was such a young bride. Maybe there's more to the story, and I think that Ethel's question was right on. Liz J On 4 June 2011 13:36, Pat & Walter Wardell <[email protected]> wrote: > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in > 1641. > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > theory. > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of > her birth date or age at any given time. > > Pat > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five >> children >> baptized in NA DRChurch. >> >>                              Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje >> Gerrits: >> Child: Gerrit. Parents:  Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May >> 1640. >> New Amsterdam DRCh. >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. >> [NYDC >> 2:10] >>   Married: Belitje Quick >> Child: Margariet.  Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen.  Bp: 5 May 1641. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC  2:12] >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz.  Baecker, >> Rachel >> Vigne. >>   Married:  (1) Herman Theuniszeen  (2) Jan Pietersen  Haring. See >> below. >> (3) Daniel DeClark. >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn  Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys >> vr., >> Cornelis Corneliszen. >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July  1649. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt  Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje >> Koerten. >>   Married: Andries Jeuriaensz >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn  Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New >> Amsterdam >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje >> Cornelis. >> >> This query  concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5  May 1641 who >> married >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan  Pietersen Haring in >> 1662 >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. >> >>                                           *  * A Brief Timeline on >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.*  * >> >> >> >> >> 5 May 1641.  Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was  bp >> 5 May >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] >> >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen >> VanZell >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] >>            The  above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. >> >> 6 Sept 1655.  Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft.  [RNA >> v2:160] >> >> Pltf. says, deft. made  use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also >> let it >> stray in the woods.  Requests, that she be condemned to  search for >> the >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense.  Deft. >> says, pltf’s >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she  wished to lead him from >> her >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh  Water, to prevent >> any further >> damage.  Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. >> Parties >> being heard, it was decided by  the Court that the deft was >> justified to >> bring the horse from her land to  prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s >> demand is >> dismissed. >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens  1653-1655    [RNA >> V1:352,353] >> EKK:  The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married >> woman of >> one year, four months. >>        Did  Hendrick Pietersen  take a child to court?  Is that >> legal? Why >> isn't her husband with her  or >>        mentioned in the court  record?  It mentions 'her buckwheat' >> and >> "her land"  Did she  own land? >>        It is a hard to  believe story for a 14 year old child. >> >> 24 Feb 1658.  Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. >>              The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. >> >> Witsuntide 1662.  Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan  Haring. [Bible >> record].  She has seven children. >> >> 4 March 1685.  Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC  1:56] >> No issue. >> -------------------------- >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected >> researchers >> on the Harings.  Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many  deeds, >> wills, >> church and court records etc.  BUT  I find it hard to  believe that >> a child >> 12 years, 11 months old,  married Theuniszen  VanZell on 19 April >> 1654 and >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister.    'It don't fit' >> >> It was suggested that  Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her >> brother >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and  Vroutje >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be >> about 16/17 at >> marriage, still young, but believable.   BUT, if the  parents had a >> child >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young  to name >> another child >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. >> >> Any and all suggestions welcome.     Best  regards,  Ethel Kay >> Konight >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >>  with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pat, You wrote: <My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age in any other records? > ekk: As was usual at the time, the NYDCh records give the bp date and seldom do they include the birth date. I included in my query the bp records of Margariet and her four siblings to show the order of birth, dates of baptism and witnesses. Margariet is the second child of Cosyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits to be bp in the NYDC on 5 May 1641. You wrote: <I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in 1641 (when she was a few years old).> ekk: I found only one reference to her returning to the Netherlands. 12 Feb 1659 which would have nothing to do with finding info in the much earlier New Amsterdam records in the 1640's. When did she make other trips to the Netherlands? ekk: Vroutje made a trip back to the Netherlands and returned 12 February 1659. In De Trouw [The Faith], Captain Jan Janse Bestevaer. "Vroutgen Gerritsen, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen, wheelwright." Holland Society Yearbook [HSYB 1902:9] [Boyer:120] What are the earlier dates and records that Vroutje Gerrits made return trips to the Netherlands? Pat, thanks for adding info to a family that is loaded with question marks. Regards, Ethel = = = = = = = = From PAW. My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in 1641. I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in 1641 (when she was a few years old). It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride theory. I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of her birth date or age at any given time. Pat

Regarding the apparent age of 12y 11m for Margriet at the time of her first marriage, I would add for your consideration the article, "Some New Light on Aeltje Braconie and Maria Badie," by Harry Macy, Jr., published in NYGBR 142 (2011):21, in which he states the case for Magdalena Verdon being only age 13 at the time of her marriage on 21 March 1645 (RDC New Amsterdam). Although, there is no baptism record for Magdalena, and her age of 13 is based upon the assumption that she gave birth to a son, Daniel, in 1678, the article does accept the premiss that a girl could be married as young as 13 during the earlier part of the 17th century in New Netherland, when it was governed by the Dutch. If nothing else, the point here, is that a marriage of a girl at the young age of 13, is within the realm of the possible for Margriet's time and place. Regards, Chris Chester On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > children > baptized in NA DRChurch. > > Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje > Gerrits: > Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May > 1640. > New Amsterdam DRCh. > Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > [NYDC > 2:10] > Married: Belitje Quick > Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > Rachel > Vigne. > Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > below. > (3) Daniel DeClark. > Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys > vr., > Cornelis Corneliszen. > Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje > Koerten. > Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > Cornelis. > > This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > married > (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in > 1662 > (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > * * A Brief Timeline on > Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > > > > 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp > 5 May > 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > VanZell > 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > v2:160] > > Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also > let it > stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for > the > horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. > says, pltf’s > horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from > her > land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent > any further > damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. > Parties > being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > justified to > bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s > demand is > dismissed. > Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > V1:352,353] > EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > woman of > one year, four months. > Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > legal? Why > isn't her husband with her or > mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' > and > "her land" Did she own land? > It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > record]. She has seven children. > > 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC 1:56] > No issue. > -------------------------- > There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > researchers > on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, > wills, > church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that > a child > 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > 1654 and > married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her > brother > Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje > Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be > about 16/17 at > marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a > child > Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > another child > Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > Konight > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

My post got sent before I'd finished writing I meant to add that Grietje not only knew her right to marry at twelve but also that Roman Dutch law gave her the right to defend herself in court. She is a character in my historical novel Land So Fair (2008) and in my historical poem A Catch of Grandmothers, now in its third printing. Along with A Dutch Family in the Middle Colonies (Rutgers U Press), all available on Amazon. Don't underestimate our Grietje! Sent from my iPhone

Hugo Grotius, the famous 17th-century jurist and expert on Roman-Dutch law, stated that 12 was the minimum legal age for girls to marry. He later added that girls under 20 required the permission of a parent to marry. When writing my ph.d dissertation on the Haring family, I asked Howard Durie's oOpinion on Grietje's age at marriage and whether it could have been a mistake in the records. He did not think so. He said Grietje was "precocious" in more ways than one. Under Roman- Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five children > baptized in NA DRChurch. > > Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje > Gerrits: > Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May 1640. > New Amsterdam DRCh. > Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. [NYDC > 2:10] > Married: Belitje Quick > Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, Rachel > Vigne. > Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See below. > (3) Daniel DeClark. > Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys vr., > Cornelis Corneliszen. > Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje > Koerten. > Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje Cornelis. > > This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who married > (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in 1662 > (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > * * A Brief Timeline on > Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > > > > 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp 5 May > 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen VanZell > 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > v2:160] > > Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also let it > stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for the > horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. says, pltf’s > horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from her > land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent any further > damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. Parties > being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was justified to > bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s demand is > dismissed. > Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > V1:352,353] > EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married woman of > one year, four months. > Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that legal? Why > isn't her husband with her or > mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' and > "her land" Did she own land? > It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > record]. She has seven children. > > 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC 1:56] > No issue. > -------------------------- > There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected researchers > on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, wills, > church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that a child > 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April 1654 and > married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her brother > Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje > Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be about 16/17 at > marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a child > Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name another child > Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay Konight > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ethel, Two comments: 1) I believe the dates in the church register at that time were banns, not the actual marriage. Though the marriage usually was contracted soon after, there were occasionally delays. Given her age at the time, the marriage may not have been consumated till much later, as is supported by the baptism of her first known child when she was 16. As an example, Adrian Hegeman and Martha Remsen were married at least 6 months after their banns were published: banns: Year 1714. The 3 December the marriage banns were registered of Adriaan Hegeman, young man, born and residing in Midwood, and Martha van der Beek, young lady, likewise born and residing in Midwood. Married the ___ by me. V. Antonides. [Flatbush Church Records vol 1, p 307] Adrian's father's will: In the name of the Lord, Jesus, Amen. In the year 1715, the 15 day of June, in Kings County, Island of Nassau, in the village of Midwout, in the presence of the undersigned, the worthy ABRAHAM HEGEMAN declares his will to dispose of his temporal affairs, .... I leave to my son Adrian, who is un-married, a proper outset out of my estate, ... Abstracts of wills on file in the Surrogate's Office, City of New York (Volume XI - - unrecorded wills prior to 1790), UNRECORDED WILLS. page 177. (Written in the Dutch language.) 2) Is it possible the Vroutje is a nickname (meaning darling wife) and not her actual given name? If so, could Vroutje's given name be Margaret. The court case would be very unusual for a 14 year old girl, especially if she were only engaged at the time. Could this case be in regards to Vroutje, the mother, and not her daughter? Are there similar cases of neglect on the part of Vroutje? Are there other other records where the mother may have been mistaken for the daughter? Mike Morrissey > From: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 10:31:49 -0400 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits > > * * A Brief Timeline on > Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp 5 May > 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen VanZell > 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > v2:160] > > Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also let it > stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for the > horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. says, pltf’s > horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from her > land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent any further > damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. Parties > being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was justified to > bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s demand is > dismissed. > Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > V1:352,353] > EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married woman of > one year, four months. > Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that legal? Why > isn't her husband with her or > mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' and > "her land" Did she own land? > It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > record]. She has seven children. > > 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC 1:56] > No issue. > -------------------------- > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay Konight

Pat, what a plausible suggestion, since otherwise she is too young for the events we know took place early in her long life. I would like to point out that Ackerman in his Genealogy of the Haring Family, does say that Grietje was born in 1634 in Harlem, Holland, though where he got that information/idea from is unknown. He also says that the immigrant Jan Pieter Haring was the grandson of Peter Haring and Cathys Boogaert of Holland - another mysterious claim. The Ackerman genealogy, with all its faults, at least does give one a place to start searching the family, and it is online at http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH21&CISOPTR=37492&REC=18 Regina Haring http://www.dutchdoorgenealogy.com > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 13:36:12 -0400 > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits > To: [email protected] > > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in > 1641. > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > theory. > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of > her birth date or age at any given time. > > Pat

My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few years old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does not give a date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth or age in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, the norm to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was born in 1641. I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & Vrouwtje first came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother brought her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her baptized there in 1641 (when she was a few years old). It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride theory. I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. What I would really like to see is a separate documented mention of her birth date or age at any given time. Pat On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > children > baptized in NA DRChurch. > > Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and Vroutje > Gerrits: > Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: 20 May > 1640. > New Amsterdam DRCh. > Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > [NYDC > 2:10] > Married: Belitje Quick > Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > Rachel > Vigne. > Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > below. > (3) Daniel DeClark. > Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn huys > vr., > Cornelis Corneliszen. > Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, Geertje > Koerten. > Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > Amsterdam > DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > Cornelis. > > This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > married > (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen Haring in > 1662 > (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > * * A Brief Timeline on > Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > > > > 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was bp > 5 May > 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > VanZell > 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, deft. [RNA > v2:160] > > Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, and also > let it > stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to search for > the > horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. Deft. > says, pltf’s > horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him from > her > land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to prevent > any further > damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s demand. > Parties > being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > justified to > bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore pltf’s > demand is > dismissed. > Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 [RNA > V1:352,353] > EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > woman of > one year, four months. > Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > legal? Why > isn't her husband with her or > mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her buckwheat' > and > "her land" Did she own land? > It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. [Bible > record]. She has seven children. > > 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC 1:56] > No issue. > -------------------------- > There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > researchers > on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many deeds, > wills, > church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe that > a child > 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > 1654 and > married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than her > brother > Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje > Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, she would be > about 16/17 at > marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents had a > child > Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > another child > Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > Konight > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

shucks... that should read be unable to justify <sigh> -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Holly Timm Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 3:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC I should think a great deal depends on the geography of our ancestors. Certainly, based on my mother's early NY Dutch colonial lines I would be able to justify NEHGS membership. I am a member because my paternal grandfather's lines go back into the early 1700's and the 1600's of New England. Even so, I would love to be able to purchase a CD of the complete NNC. Holly Timm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara de Mare Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC Hi Dorothy, I am thrilled to have them available on NEHGS.  Anyone who says they have no other reason to join obviously doesn't know about all the benefits of NEHGS and its fabulous library and website.  NNC is just one more of their excellent data bases. Barbara   Barbara L. de Mare, Esq. Attorney, historian, genealogist, grandmother 155 Polifly Road Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 (201) 567-9440 office http://historygenealogyesq.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 7:33:16 PM Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC Dear Chris and All,  Yes, volumes 1-12 have been available for some time.  I recently spoke to the folks at NEHGS, and they said that they are working on indexing volumes 13-15 (which will complete the whole set) and that they will be posted to the database as soon as possible. Dorothy >Terry, > >The NEHGS has made available volumes 1 thru 12 of NNC, to members, at >their website, www.americanancestors.org > >I do have digitized copies in PDF format here at home and send them to >your e-mail address shortly. > >Volumes 13, 14 and 15, have not yet been added to the NEHGS's online >collection. (Not sure what the hold up is, Vol. 12 was placed online >more than two years ago). > >Chris Chester >On Jun 2, 2011, at 3:30 PM, THJ wrote: > >>  Hi Dorothy, >> >>  Hope you are keeping well! I'm still pursuing the van der Hoeven >>  family and wonder if you might still have the following articles >>from >>  NNC.  I'm happy to pay for copies and postage. >>  Abstracts from Notarial Documents in the Amsterdam Archives by Pim >>  Nieuwenhuis published in New Netherland Connections in series Vol. >>  4:3,4; Vol. 5:1-3 >> >>  Grateful thanks >> >> >>  Terry Haslam-Jones >>  Rossendale >>  England >> >>  ------------------------------- >>  To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>[email protected] >>  with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>  the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As a free contributor (author/co-author) to the NNC, when this deal went down I signed an agreement with NEHGS, granting them permission to republish my work. I had understood at the time, that NEHGS would allow public access to the NNC section of their databese. I signed only after being reassured that the NNC would be made available to the public. I would not otherwise have granted permission... and the NEHGS would have had to "blank out" my articles. Now the NNC section of the NEHGS database has been made private: members-only, accessible only after payment of dues to the NEHGS. Members-only is not "public access." Why did the attitude of NEHGS change? Liz J On 4 June 2011 11:11, Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Holly and All,  First of all, it is just grand to see this > Dutch-Colonies list wake up from its recent deep coma :-)!  It gives > me joy to know that the trusty regulars are all out there as their > familiar names pop up in my inbox. > > Note that "In January 2008 I freely granted "exclusive permission to > allow NEHGS to electronically publish New Netherland Connections on > the NEHGS website..." > > If anyone wants to propose to the Society that they make a CD > available, the appropriate person to contact at the New England > Historic Genealogical Society is Thomas Wilcox, Chief Operating > Officer, NEHGS. > > Tom's email address is          [email protected] > > Dorothy