E How did it go announcing our new business on Friday? Also, I assume Jessica was well received?? K On Jun 5, 2011, at 10:57 PM, Carolyn Leonard wrote: > The way our Dutch ancestor's names evolved back in that day, I wonder > if any connection has been searched from Aunt Susanna Elefersen to the > Lefferts of the historic house in Brooklyn now a museum in Prospect > Park. According to the webpage, "Pieter Lefferts built the house > around 1783, four generations after his ancestors arrived in the New > World. Lefferts served as a lieutenant in the Continental Army during > the Revolutionary War and was later appointed to a judgeship in Kings > County. He also served as a member of the New York State convention > that ratified the Constitution in 1788." > > Just a thought - and I am really enjoying this discussion. > > Best wishes to all, > carolyn leonard, OKC > www.carolynbleonard.com > www.dutchcousins.info > > On Jun 5, 2011, at 3:43 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > From: "Firth Fabend" <[email protected]> > Date: June 5, 2011 3:35:07 PM CDT > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cosyn, Vroutje, Grietje > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Liz wrote: "This requires throwing away all of the mythology, and > locating > and interpreting whatever Dutch records are available. What a great > lesson > here: Simply looking at the New Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, > which > contains a very limited amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw > solid conclusions about the early life of this man, his wives, and his > children. There's a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, > back in > Hoorn." > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nobody thinks twice when men marry women that much younger (my ex did). But we are shocked when women marry men that much younger. I've known a number of successful marriages with the wife that much (or more) older. There may have been financial reasons, or a desire to have someone to take care of her in old age, among others. Or they might even have cared for each other! Doris ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Firth Fabend" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozine, Grietje's third marriage Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 17:14:56 -0400 Sorry, I mispoke just now, mixing fiction with fact. Grietje was 44 in 1685 when she married Daniel De Clark. De Clark was thirteen years her junior, not seven. He was about thirty-one in 1685. Thirteen years! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Groupon&#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city&#39;s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4dec16be2df89a2f60st05vuc

The way our Dutch ancestor's names evolved back in that day, I wonder if any connection has been searched from Aunt Susanna Elefersen to the Lefferts of the historic house in Brooklyn now a museum in Prospect Park. According to the webpage, "Pieter Lefferts built the house around 1783, four generations after his ancestors arrived in the New World. Lefferts served as a lieutenant in the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War and was later appointed to a judgeship in Kings County. He also served as a member of the New York State convention that ratified the Constitution in 1788." Just a thought - and I am really enjoying this discussion. Best wishes to all, carolyn leonard, OKC www.carolynbleonard.com www.dutchcousins.info On Jun 5, 2011, at 3:43 PM, [email protected] wrote: From: "Firth Fabend" <[email protected]> Date: June 5, 2011 3:35:07 PM CDT To: <[email protected]> Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cosyn, Vroutje, Grietje Reply-To: [email protected] Liz wrote: "This requires throwing away all of the mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. There's a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn."

Need ancestors of Marrigje Barends b.1590 who possibly married Gerrit Goosens Van Schiack b. 1585

I believe they're going to do the same thing with the PA databases from the PA society, requiring membership for access. Like other genealogical societies, it may be a matter of needing the money to stay afloat? A member of the NEGHS passes along the print journals to me when he's done with them, and I subscribe to the free public online weekly email from them. I'm eligible, as I have mid-17th c. New England ancestors, but just one family. It hasn't seemed worth the money to join, interesting as the articles in New England Ancestors in particular often are. So far, while I've learned much in general, not one article has been about my family. But I have many Dutch ancestors and would really like access to NNC. I agree, requiring membership isn't public access. Even Ancestry is free if you go to your public library, though what they have is superficial compared to NNC. Doris ---------- Original Message ---------- From: E Johnson <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] NNC Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 12:02:20 -0400 As a free contributor (author/co-author) to the NNC, when this deal went down I signed an agreement with NEHGS, granting them permission to republish my work. I had understood at the time, that NEHGS would allow public access to the NNC section of their databese. I signed only after being reassured that the NNC would be made available to the public. I would not otherwise have granted permission... and the NEHGS would have had to "blank out" my articles. Now the NNC section of the NEHGS database has been made private: members-only, accessible only after payment of dues to the NEHGS. Members-only is not "public access." Why did the attitude of NEHGS change? Liz J On 4 June 2011 11:11, Dorothy Koenig <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Holly and All, First of all, it is just grand to see this > Dutch-Colonies list wake up from its recent deep coma :-)! It gives > me joy to know that the trusty regulars are all out there as their > familiar names pop up in my inbox. > > Note that "In January 2008 I freely granted "exclusive permission to > allow NEHGS to electronically publish New Netherland Connections on > the NEHGS website..." > > If anyone wants to propose to the Society that they make a CD > available, the appropriate person to contact at the New England > Historic Genealogical Society is Thomas Wilcox, Chief Operating > Officer, NEHGS. > > Tom's email address is [email protected] > > Dorothy ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Groupon&#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city&#39;s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4debd09bebd143043best01vuc

I do agree that these stories make our ancestors more human. In my ggg grandmother’s case, I’ve always wondered what’s behind the bare facts of dates.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> There was, I think, time between the birth of her daughter and the marriage of the child’s father, for publishing of banns and the marriage. Was Neeltje expecting him to marry her? Did she feel betrayed? Or was the sex that led to the child’s birth even consensual? Neeltje was only 16 when she got pregnant and 17 when Claarasa/Claara was born. (Not, given recent posts, that that was particularly young.) Or was she relieved he married someone else? Was she pressured into marrying Hendrick Bastiaanse four years later, since she was pregnant? How I would love to be a fly on the wall, and know what was in her head and heart. On the other hand, I read “somewhere,” either on this list or in one of the books on Dutch New York in this time period, that in about a third of marriages around 1800, the bride was premaritally pregnant. This statistic, based on looking at marriage and birth records, really struck me. Compared to our stereotypes of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />New England from The Scarlet Letter it seems the Dutch were a little more forgiving of human nature. Doris ---------- Original Message ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 12:56:38 -0500 (CDT) I need to clarify that pre-1980 statement, I was referring to those years when I was a girl after 1940, not the 1600's or era we are discussing. Judy Jun 5, 2011 01:51:33 PM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Actually I believe this makes them very human real people who were subject to all the same pressures and desires that we feel today. Too often we make them in to these not quite "real" people, more saintly types which is totally unrealistic. They may have lived their lives, in a different time period, but were faced with many of the same senario's we are, it is, however, quite interesting to see how they handled the situations as they arose. In the years pre-1980 or so if someone got pregnant, they were sent off to the Home for Unwed Mothers, forced to give up their babies and it was all swept under the rung as it it never occured. In this case, it sounds as if the situation was more accepted as "these things occur from time to time." On the other hand, we really don't know just how many children, were of the mother but not of her husband. Often it is assumed that early babies were of the husband, but there is always the case when the man refused to marry or she didn't w! ant to marry him, when a husband was needed, one was either "volunteered or chosen" and not necessarily of the brides choice. Clearly after the death of her husband, Angenientje turned to Jacob Gulig. Perhaps despite the fact that she was pregnant, since he was not baptized, she chose not to marry him or perhaps he choose not to marry her. She went on to marry again, the situation apparently accepted by her family. Assuming they were all aware that babies were not created in the cabbage patch, she was an adult who surely knew what the outcome of her relation might be and dealt with it. We have not discussed divorce, however, I have found that sometimes, the wife left, took the children, moved to another state or location, declared themselves a widow or widower and married again without ever divorcing their husband/wife. Since Divorces were rare events, apparently this is one of the ways that people resolved this kind of situation and often with the support of their family. So again, we can't apply todays rules to yesterdays ancestors. Judy Jun 5, 2011 11:38:37 AM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Refinance Rates at 2.8% $160,000 Mortgage $659/mo. 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I have another example from my own ancestry, of unwed parents both not marrying, and marrying. My ggg grandmother, Neeltje Schermerhorn, wrote in her NT, which I have, of her first child, Claarasa, b. 6 Oct. 1798. She didn't give a last name, as she did for the later children of her marriage to Hendrick Bastiaanse. I posted on this list, back in 2005, a query about who her father was, presuming a first marriage I was unaware of. Several people, including Lorine Schulz, looked for her baptismal records, and discovered "Claara" was bp. in Schenectady DRC 9 Dec 1798, with Neeltje Schermerhoorn as mother, Harmanus Van Slyke shown as father, Evert Schermerhoorn and Elizabeth Schermerhoorn (Elizabeth was Neeltje's sister, Evert Elizabeth's husband) as sponsors. The baby's name was shown as Claara, and she is shown as illegitimate. Not only did the parents not marry, the probable father (there were several men of that name in Schenectady at the time, but only one had a mother named Claara, so Lorine concluded he was the probable father) married someone else later in Oct. 1798. In other words, between the birth of his child and her baptism, the father married somebody else. Lorine searched many other legal records and found nothing but Claara/Claraasa's baptismal record, so concluded the child died young. The mother, Neeltje Schermerhorn, married Hendrick Bastiaanse 24 Mar 1802, three months pregnant with the first of their 8 children. I read somewhere--either on this list or in one of the books on Dutch New York--that about one third of marriages around 1800 involved premarital pregnancy. Doris ---------- Original Message ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 15:37:56 +0000 (GMT) Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Groupon&#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city&#39;s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4debc1d5a25af22a91est06vuc

Sorry, I mispoke just now, mixing fiction with fact. Grietje was 44 in 1685 when she married Daniel De Clark. De Clark was thirteen years her junior, not seven. He was about thirty-one in 1685. Thirteen years!

Nancy writes: "In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors?" I do not know of instances of this, but in Land So Fair, pp. 14-15, when Grietje Cosyns announces to her parents her desire to marry Herman Th. v Zell, they agree, finally, on condition that she not live with him until she has "attained a more decent age." This is fine with Grietje, who "didn't want to live with him anyway. I'd have to cook and clean all day." Her father takes her point. "What she means is all she wants to do is . . . " I think Grietje was a lusty lady. Not only did she marry at 12, she married a second time to Jan Pietersen Haring, and not too long after his death in 1683, at age 35 she married Daniel De Clark, who was seven years her junior. She outlived him. Firth Haring Fabend

Liz wrote: "This requires throwing away all of the mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. There's a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn." Yes, and I have tried mightily to track down Aunt Susanna with the help of archivists in Hoorn. No luck. Only 10 percent of the 17th-century records of Hoorn have survived, and hers are not among them. But in my de Halve Maen article "Cosyn Gerritsen van Putten: New Amsterdam's Wheelwright," which I cited in another e-mail earlier today, I have theorized about her and the connections among Cosyn Gerritsen and some of the families that touched his life. I wrote: "In sum on this point, certain last names drawn from the records of Putten and Hoorn [home of Jan Pietersen Haring] are connected to Cosyn Gerritsen van Putten of New Amsterdam: Claase, Claasen, Elefersen, Elefersz, Ellertsen, Evertsen, Haring, Reyersen, Reynier, Toenissen, and Tuenissen among them. Further examination may shed light on an even more coherent and durable family network than one suspects--and lead to further insights into the importance of family and friends to a sustainable existence in New Netherland." p. 30. In another article, published in South of the Mountains (Historical Society of Rockland County, Oct.-Dec. 2007, entitled "Jan Pietersen Haring, 1633-1683, Sightings and Connections, Hoorn, New Amsterdam, New York, and New Jersey," I have proved JPH's Hoorn origins and the fact that he, lilke his father-in-law, was a wheelwright, and theorized a little more about Aunt Susanna. I also found that his Tappan venture was not his first cooperative land venture. There is an earlier one cited in The Andros Papers. This article, minus the 15 illustrations, can be read in pdf format at www.dutchdoorgenealogy.com Thank you, Liz! Firth Haring Fabend

I realized as soon as I sent this that I had assigned Grietje to the wrong Haring husband -- she married (2) Jan Pietersen Haring, SON of Peter Jansen Haring. Sorry for the mental lapse! Pat On Jun 5, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > Another place to look for Cosyn Gerritsen and Vrouwtje Gerrits back in > the Netherlands might be in Haarlem. He doesn't give his sources, but > Herbert Stewart Ackerman, in his Haring genealogy, says that Grietje > Cosyns (dau, of Cosyn Gerritsen and Vrouwtje Gerrits), who married (2) > Peter Jansen Haring, was born in 1634 (as Regina Haring noted > previously in this discussion), and he further says she was b. in > Haarlem. > > Another location to look for records, if they exist. > > Pat > > > On Jun 5, 2011, at 3:43 PM, E Johnson wrote: > >> Thanks very much to Pat and Firth and Chris for pointing to the >> marriage record and for exploding the myth that "Maijcken Everts = >> Vrouwtje." >> >> Let me add a credible authority for the given-name Vrouwtje. Indeed >> this was not a nickname, nor a term of endearment. This name was and >> is a real Dutch women's name. It is a diminutive of the name Frauk. >> This name has been used for centuries, and is still used today. See >> Dr. J van der Schaar's Handbook of given names entitled _Woordenboek >> van Voornamen_ (1964, Prisma), which lists many spellings and >> versions >> of the given-name Frauk. In my edition (1992), this is on p. 177. Dr. >> J. van der Schaar writes that modern interpretation of this name is >> sometimes rendered as 'Veronica.' >> >> Vrouwtje, Cozyn's apparent second wife (married by 1640) is called >> either 'Vrouwtje Cozyns" or 'Vrouwtje Gerrits' in the baptisms. >> 'Cozyns' is the husband-nym; Gerrit is the husband's patronym, but it >> is not impossible that her father's name was also Gerrit __. >> >> O'Callaghan didn't help matters concerning Vrouwtje. in RNA 1, his >> translation of this woman's name comes out first as "Mrs. Gerrits, >> wife of Cosyn Gerritsen". [RNA 1:96] Ten pages later, though he has >> it >> right (as her name). >> >> As Chris mentioned, a search for baptisms of children of Cosyn >> Gerrits >> and Maijken Everts is important. I checked Amsterdam, & no... not >> there, unless they were Remonstrants or Mennonites. It might not be a >> bad idea to check first for records of Harderwyjk, the next closest >> city to Putten. >> >> Regarding Margriete Cosyns, the one who apparently married young, it >> is not unprecedented to find two children with the same first name in >> the same family. >> >> It appears that there is a lot more to the Cosyn Gerrits and >> Margriete >> Cosyns cases than has been verified so far. Rather than constructing >> fuzzy stories explaining away aspects of these cases that "don't >> fit", >> it would serve the truth better to at least attempt to locate earlier >> records of this family. This requires throwing away all of the >> mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are >> available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New >> Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited >> amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions >> about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. >> There's >> a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn. >> >> Liz J >> >> The ocean is not an impassable gulf, and langage doesn't have to be a >> barrier. The limits exist only in our own minds. Find the edge of the >> envelope, then stretch it... Fly. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Another place to look for Cosyn Gerritsen and Vrouwtje Gerrits back in the Netherlands might be in Haarlem. He doesn't give his sources, but Herbert Stewart Ackerman, in his Haring genealogy, says that Grietje Cosyns (dau, of Cosyn Gerritsen and Vrouwtje Gerrits), who married (2) Peter Jansen Haring, was born in 1634 (as Regina Haring noted previously in this discussion), and he further says she was b. in Haarlem. Another location to look for records, if they exist. Pat On Jun 5, 2011, at 3:43 PM, E Johnson wrote: > Thanks very much to Pat and Firth and Chris for pointing to the > marriage record and for exploding the myth that "Maijcken Everts = > Vrouwtje." > > Let me add a credible authority for the given-name Vrouwtje. Indeed > this was not a nickname, nor a term of endearment. This name was and > is a real Dutch women's name. It is a diminutive of the name Frauk. > This name has been used for centuries, and is still used today. See > Dr. J van der Schaar's Handbook of given names entitled _Woordenboek > van Voornamen_ (1964, Prisma), which lists many spellings and versions > of the given-name Frauk. In my edition (1992), this is on p. 177. Dr. > J. van der Schaar writes that modern interpretation of this name is > sometimes rendered as 'Veronica.' > > Vrouwtje, Cozyn's apparent second wife (married by 1640) is called > either 'Vrouwtje Cozyns" or 'Vrouwtje Gerrits' in the baptisms. > 'Cozyns' is the husband-nym; Gerrit is the husband's patronym, but it > is not impossible that her father's name was also Gerrit __. > > O'Callaghan didn't help matters concerning Vrouwtje. in RNA 1, his > translation of this woman's name comes out first as "Mrs. Gerrits, > wife of Cosyn Gerritsen". [RNA 1:96] Ten pages later, though he has it > right (as her name). > > As Chris mentioned, a search for baptisms of children of Cosyn Gerrits > and Maijken Everts is important. I checked Amsterdam, & no... not > there, unless they were Remonstrants or Mennonites. It might not be a > bad idea to check first for records of Harderwyjk, the next closest > city to Putten. > > Regarding Margriete Cosyns, the one who apparently married young, it > is not unprecedented to find two children with the same first name in > the same family. > > It appears that there is a lot more to the Cosyn Gerrits and Margriete > Cosyns cases than has been verified so far. Rather than constructing > fuzzy stories explaining away aspects of these cases that "don't fit", > it would serve the truth better to at least attempt to locate earlier > records of this family. This requires throwing away all of the > mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are > available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New > Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited > amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions > about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. There's > a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn. > > Liz J > > The ocean is not an impassable gulf, and langage doesn't have to be a > barrier. The limits exist only in our own minds. Find the edge of the > envelope, then stretch it... Fly. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

On the "Vroutje" discussion: I have always taken Vroutje, or Froutje, to equate to Sophia. I have several Vroutjes and Froutjes in my ancestry, and those were their given names at baptism. Vroutje does appear in my Dutch dictionary, defined as wife or woman or mistress. A given name (or nickname) equivalent would not appear in a traditional language dictionary. In modern dictionaries, given name equivalents are sometimes included, e.g. "Bill" as both common noun and proper name. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brooks <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:23 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits To: [email protected] > I've been following this discussion and I agree it's good to see so > muchactivity on the DL again. I am not a descendant of this couple > but the > discussion as raised some good information about marriageable age > in New > Netherland and the independence and free spirit of a mere 'woman'. > Our Dutch > ancestors were different than we are and rose to the occasion > regardless of > age or gender. > > My comment however is on the marriage Pat mentioned that was > discovered at > Putten for a Cosijn Gerrits to a Maijken Everts. I had to read her > post a > couple of times because I don't see this the marriage of the couple > beingdiscussed. The comment was made that Vroutje may be a nickname > for 'little > wife' and her name was something else. I disagree. Vroutje and > Vrouwken were > common first names so equating Vroutje Gerrits as Maijken Everts is > highlyunlikely. I checked the Putten marriage ondertrouwen and the > marriagelisting is as it was published and while the first name > Cosijn is rather > uncommon, if this is the Cosijn Gerritsen of New Netherland I would > thinkthis is a prior marriage for him and not the marriage of the > wife who was > with him in New Netherland. In checking the Putten RDC baptisms > from 1631 to > 1639, I found no children baptised for this couple although the > closestmatch was in 1638 for a Jochem son of 'Goosen' Gerrits of > Putten. I would > have to assume that Cosijn may have been born at Putten but likely > marriedVroutje at some other location. I also took a quick glance > at the baptisms > from 1601-1630 and I didn't find the baptism for a Cosijn son of a > Gerrit.Unfortunately many of the baptisms only record the baptism > of a 'kynt' or > child with no name making the task harder. I did find a Gerrit > Jansen as the > father of baptised children but some had no first name. > > Personally, I wouldn't accept the marriage intentions given as the > marriagefor Cosjin and Vroutje although I wouldn't rule it out as > an earlier > marriage for Cosijn. I think you will just have to look in some other > location for a marriage for Cosijn to Vroutje. > > Chris > > Chris Brooks > Kansas City, Missouri > > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Pat & Walter Wardell > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Hi Listers -- > > > > Such a great conversation and it IS good to see the Dutch-Colonies > > List "come alive" again. I just knew you were all out there > lurking :-) > > > > According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine < > > [email protected] > > >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn > > Gerritsen -- > > > > Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim > > Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, > > son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the > late> Evert Reijers. both of Putten. > > > > Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list > > suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the > > "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." > > > > The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives. > > > > So, if they were married in 1631, there is plenty of time for some > > children to have been born in the Netherlands before the couple came > > to New York. In fact, it would be unusual if there were no children > > born before 1640 (the date of the first baptism of a child for > them in > > the NYC Ref Ch). > > > > I'm mentioning this because if this marriage date is, indeed, > > accurate, I think it gives us a new view of the "timeline" and > > bolsters the idea that Margariet/Grietje may have been born a few > > years before her 1641 baptism in New Amsterdam. I still think it's > > very possible that she may have been left in the care of > relatives in > > the Netherlands when her parents came to New Netherland, and made > the> voyage at some point before 1641 to the new world (either with > her> mother or with another relative). We know her mother, > Vrouwtje, made > > at least one voyage back to the Netherlands, and even though it > was an > > arduous trip in those times, it's possible she made other voyages > back> and forth. > > > > I'm still having trouble with the idea (even if it WAS technically > > legal) of a 12-13 year old girl marrying. Even if we can bump her > age> at marriage up a couple of years, she would still be quite a > > "precocious" girl, and quite remarkable, actually. But then, it > amazes> me how well our colonial Dutch ancestors managed, lived, > and prospered > > (and sometimes how long some of them lived) in what must have been > > conditions we today would consider very difficult. Just to make the > > voyage here indicates an amazing spirit of adventure, strength and > > resolve! > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Pat & Walter Wardell wrote: > > > > > My thought is that Margariet, baptized 1641 was perhaps a few > years> > old at the time of her baptism. The NYC Ref Ch record does > not give a > > > date of birth. Is there any other mention of her date of birth > or age > > > in any other records? I think because it was, at that period, > the norm > > > to baptize infants soon after their births, it has always been > > > generally accepted that if she was baptized in 1641, she was > born in > > > 1641. > > > > > > I'm thinking that since Vrouwtje apparently made trips to the > > > Netherlands and back, perhaps this child had been born in the > > > Netherlands, and remained there when Cozyn Gerritszen & > Vrouwtje first > > > came to New Netherland. Perhaps, in this scenario, her mother > brought> > her to New Amsterdam in a "return" trip, and had her > baptized there in > > > 1641 (when she was a few years old). > > > > > > It seems a better solution than the drastically young child bride > > > theory. > > > > > > I don't know how this could ever be proved, though. > > > > > > What I would really like to see is a separate documented > mention of > > > her birth date or age at any given time. > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:31 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> My ancestors Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and Vroutje Gerrits had five > > >> children > > >> baptized in NA DRChurch. > > >> > > >> Children of Cozyn Gerritszen and > Vroutje> >> Gerrits: > > >> Child: Gerrit. Parents: Cozyn Gerrits, Vrouwtie Cozyns. Bp: > 20 May > > >> 1640. > > >> New Amsterdam DRCh. > > >> Wits: Aert Theunis, Aert Willems, Tryntje Everts, Wyntje Elberts. > > >> [NYDC > > >> 2:10] > > >> Married: Belitje Quick > > >> Child: Margariet. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 5 May 1641. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:12] > > >> Wits: Jacob van curlaer en syn huys v, Barent dircksz. Baecker, > > >> Rachel > > >> Vigne. > > >> Married: (1) Herman Theuniszeen (2) Jan Pietersen Haring. See > > >> below. > > >> (3) Daniel DeClark. > > >> Child: Hendrick. Parent: Couzyn Gerritszen. Bp: 20 Jan 1647. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:21] > > >> Wits: Sibert Claeszen, en syn huys vr., Teunis Nyssen, en syn > huys> >> vr., > > >> Cornelis Corneliszen. > > >> Child: Geertje. Parent. Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 4 July 1649. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:26] > > >> Wits; Thomas Hall, Geurt Koerten, Herman Smeeman, Pytie Jans, > > >> Geertje > > >> Koerten. > > >> Married: Andries Jeuriaensz > > >> Child: Elsje. Parent: Cozyn Gerritszen. Bp: 19 May 1652. New > > >> Amsterdam > > >> DRCh. [NYDC 2:31] > > >> Wits: Nicolaes Verleth, Hendrick Janszen, Lyntie Jochems, Belitje > > >> Cornelis. > > >> > > >> This query concerns their daughter Margariet, bp 5 May 1641 who > > >> married > > >> (1) Herman Theuniszen 19 April 1654 and (2) Jan Pietersen > Haring in > > >> 1662 > > >> (3) Daniel DeClark 4 March 1685. > > >> > > >> * * A Brief Timeline on > > >> Margariet aka Grietje Cozyn.* * > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 5 May 1641. Baptism: Child: Margariet d/o Cozyn Gerritzen was > bp > > >> 5 May > > >> 1641. [NYDC 2:12] > > >> > > >> 19 April 1654. Marriage: Grietje Cosyns to (1) Herman Theuniszen > > >> VanZell > > >> 19 April 1654. [NYDC 1:18] > > >> The above Margariet is 12 years, 11 months old. > > >> > > >> 6 Sept 1655. Hendrick Pietersen, plft vs Grietie Cosyns, > deft. [RNA > > >> v2:160] > > >> > > >> Pltf. says, deft. made use of his horse, and rode thereon, > and also > > >> let it > > >> stray in the woods. Requests, that she be condemned to > search for > > >> the > > >> horse and deliver it to him when found, at her own expense. > Deft.> >> says, pltf’s > > >> horse broke into her buckwheat, and as she wished to lead him > from> >> her > > >> land she sat on him and brought him to the Fresh Water, to > prevent> >> any further > > >> damage. Maintains that she is not bound to satisfy pltf’s > demand.> >> Parties > > >> being heard, it was decided by the Court that the deft was > > >> justified to > > >> bring the horse from her land to prevent damage. Wherefore > pltf’s> >> demand is > > >> dismissed. > > >> Minutes of the Court of Burgomasters and Schepens 1653-1655 > [RNA > > >> V1:352,353] > > >> EKK: The above Margariet is 14 years, four months and a married > > >> woman of > > >> one year, four months. > > >> Did Hendrick Pietersen take a child to court? Is that > > >> legal? Why > > >> isn't her husband with her or > > >> mentioned in the court record? It mentions 'her > buckwheat'> >> and > > >> "her land" Did she own land? > > >> It is a hard to believe story for a 14 year old child. > > >> > > >> 24 Feb 1658. Grietje Cozyn becomes a mother. > > >> The above Margariet is 16 years, nine months. > > >> > > >> Witsuntide 1662. Margarette Cozine married (2) Jan Haring. > [Bible> >> record]. She has seven children. > > >> > > >> 4 March 1685. Grietie Cozyns married (3) Daniel De Clark. NYDC > > >> 1:56] > > >> No issue. > > >> -------------------------- > > >> There are many excellent articles and genealogies by respected > > >> researchers > > >> on the Harings. Plus the Harings are mentioned in many many > deeds,> >> wills, > > >> church and court records etc. BUT I find it hard to believe > that> >> a child > > >> 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April > > >> 1654 and > > >> married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit' > > >> > > >> It was suggested that Margariet/Grietje was born earlier than > her> >> brother > > >> Gerrit who was bp: 20 May 1640. IF Cozyn Gerritsen Cozyn and > Vroutje> >> Gerrits had a child Margariet/Grietje born say 1637, > she would be > > >> about 16/17 at > > >> marriage, still young, but believable. BUT, if the parents > had a > > >> child > > >> Margariet/Grietje in 1637, that child had to die young to name > > >> another child > > >> Margariet/Grietje on 5 May 1641. > > >> > > >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Best regards, Ethel Kay > > >> Konight > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > >> the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > > the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > Chris Brooks > Kansas City, Missouri > 816-363-1831 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks very much to Pat and Firth and Chris for pointing to the marriage record and for exploding the myth that "Maijcken Everts = Vrouwtje." Let me add a credible authority for the given-name Vrouwtje. Indeed this was not a nickname, nor a term of endearment. This name was and is a real Dutch women's name. It is a diminutive of the name Frauk. This name has been used for centuries, and is still used today. See Dr. J van der Schaar's Handbook of given names entitled _Woordenboek van Voornamen_ (1964, Prisma), which lists many spellings and versions of the given-name Frauk. In my edition (1992), this is on p. 177. Dr. J. van der Schaar writes that modern interpretation of this name is sometimes rendered as 'Veronica.' Vrouwtje, Cozyn's apparent second wife (married by 1640) is called either 'Vrouwtje Cozyns" or 'Vrouwtje Gerrits' in the baptisms. 'Cozyns' is the husband-nym; Gerrit is the husband's patronym, but it is not impossible that her father's name was also Gerrit __. O'Callaghan didn't help matters concerning Vrouwtje. in RNA 1, his translation of this woman's name comes out first as "Mrs. Gerrits, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen". [RNA 1:96] Ten pages later, though he has it right (as her name). As Chris mentioned, a search for baptisms of children of Cosyn Gerrits and Maijken Everts is important. I checked Amsterdam, & no... not there, unless they were Remonstrants or Mennonites. It might not be a bad idea to check first for records of Harderwyjk, the next closest city to Putten. Regarding Margriete Cosyns, the one who apparently married young, it is not unprecedented to find two children with the same first name in the same family. It appears that there is a lot more to the Cosyn Gerrits and Margriete Cosyns cases than has been verified so far. Rather than constructing fuzzy stories explaining away aspects of these cases that "don't fit", it would serve the truth better to at least attempt to locate earlier records of this family. This requires throwing away all of the mythology, and locating and interpreting whatever Dutch records are available. What a great lesson here: Simply looking at the New Amsterdam (or New Netherland) stuff, which contains a very limited amount of material, is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions about the early life of this man, his wives, and his children. There's a clue already available: Aunt Susanna Elefersen, back in Hoorn. Liz J The ocean is not an impassable gulf, and langage doesn't have to be a barrier. The limits exist only in our own minds. Find the edge of the envelope, then stretch it... Fly.

Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I thought Grietje was born in 1634 as someone stated.             Bill Forshay - San Antonio, TX --- On Sun, 6/5/11, Firth Fabend <[email protected]> wrote: From: Firth Fabend <[email protected]> Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozine, Grietje's third marriage To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011, 4:14 PM Sorry, I mispoke just now, mixing fiction with fact. Grietje was 44 in 1685 when she married Daniel De Clark. De Clark was thirteen years her junior, not seven. He was about thirty-one in 1685. Thirteen years! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I need to clarify that pre-1980 statement, I was referring to those years when I was a girl after 1940, not the 1600's or era we are discussing. Judy Jun 5, 2011 01:51:33 PM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Actually I believe this makes them very human real people who were subject to all the same pressures and desires that we feel today. Too often we make them in to these not quite "real" people, more saintly types which is totally unrealistic. They may have lived their lives, in a different time period, but were faced with many of the same senario's we are, it is, however, quite interesting to see how they handled the situations as they arose. In the years pre-1980 or so if someone got pregnant, they were sent off to the Home for Unwed Mothers, forced to give up their babies and it was all swept under the rung as it it never occured. In this case, it sounds as if the situation was more accepted as "these things occur from time to time." On the other hand, we really don't know just how many children, were of the mother but not of her husband. Often it is assumed that early babies were of the husband, but there is always the case when the man refused to marry or she didn't w! ant to marry him, when a husband was needed, one was either "volunteered or chosen" and not necessarily of the brides choice. Clearly after the death of her husband, Angenientje turned to Jacob Gulig. Perhaps despite the fact that she was pregnant, since he was not baptized, she chose not to marry him or perhaps he choose not to marry her. She went on to marry again, the situation apparently accepted by her family. Assuming they were all aware that babies were not created in the cabbage patch, she was an adult who surely knew what the outcome of her relation might be and dealt with it. We have not discussed divorce, however, I have found that sometimes, the wife left, took the children, moved to another state or location, declared themselves a widow or widower and married again without ever divorcing their husband/wife. Since Divorces were rare events, apparently this is one of the ways that people resolved this kind of situation and often with the support of their family. So again, we can't apply todays rules to yesterdays ancestors. Judy Jun 5, 2011 11:38:37 AM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm referring now to Pat's comments re Cosyn's marriage to Maeijiken Everts. She writes: "According to information in e-mail Dec 2003 from Jim Cozine <[email protected] >, he had a Dutch researcher investigate the marriage of Cosyn Gerritsen -- Researched by Mrs. Trynke Hoekstra, of Ermelo, Netherlands for Jim Cozine in Oct 2000 -- Putten married 2 january 1631: Cosijn Gerrits, son of the late Gerrit Jans, to Maeijken Everts, daughter of the late Evert Reijers. both of Putten. Maeijken Everts was aka Vrouwtje Gerrits. As someone on this list suggested, Vrouwtje may be a nickname, meaning "little wife" and the "Gerrits" is probably a "husband-nymic." The 1631 marriage date above was found in the Putten City Archives." I too had a Dutch archive researcher in the NL search the records for Cosyn Gerritsen's marriage. His name was Dr. Peter Nouwt, and I quote him in my article "Cosyn Gerritsen van Putten: New Amsterdam's Wheelwright," de Halve Maen, Vol. 80 (Summer 2007), no. 2, pp.23-30, including ten illustrations. His report to me is dated April 2007. On page 30, I wrote: Dr. Nouwt found the marriage banns of a Cosijn Gerrits,'son of the late Gerrit Jansen, and Maeryken Evertsen, daughter of the late Evert Reyersen, both of Putten,' recorded in the City Hall of Putten on January 2, 1631. Assuming that this is the same man as our wheelwright, then Maeryken died, for Cosyn Gerritsen van Putten in New Amsterdam had a wife named Vroutje Gerrits, sometimes called Vroutje or Vroutjen Cosyns [in the records.] As Dr. Nouwt could find no death record of Maeryken Evertsen in Putten, he believes it likely that this couple emigrated to New Netherland together. On May 20, 1640, when Gerrit, the first child of Cosyn and Vroutje was baptized, one of the sponsors was a Trynjie Everts, who may have been a relative of Cosyn's first wife."

Actually I believe this makes them very human real people who were subject to all the same pressures and desires that we feel today. Too often we make them in to these not quite "real" people, more saintly types which is totally unrealistic. They may have lived their lives, in a different time period, but were faced with many of the same senario's we are, it is, however, quite interesting to see how they handled the situations as they arose. In the years pre-1980 or so if someone got pregnant, they were sent off to the Home for Unwed Mothers, forced to give up their babies and it was all swept under the rung as it it never occured. In this case, it sounds as if the situation was more accepted as "these things occur from time to time." On the other hand, we really don't know just how many children, were of the mother but not of her husband. Often it is assumed that early babies were of the husband, but there is always the case when the man refused to marry or she didn't w! ant to marry him, when a husband was needed, one was either "volunteered or chosen" and not necessarily of the brides choice. Clearly after the death of her husband, Angenientje turned to Jacob Gulig. Perhaps despite the fact that she was pregnant, since he was not baptized, she chose not to marry him or perhaps he choose not to marry her. She went on to marry again, the situation apparently accepted by her family. Assuming they were all aware that babies were not created in the cabbage patch, she was an adult who surely knew what the outcome of her relation might be and dealt with it. We have not discussed divorce, however, I have found that sometimes, the wife left, took the children, moved to another state or location, declared themselves a widow or widower and married again without ever divorcing their husband/wife. Since Divorces were rare events, apparently this is one of the ways that people resolved this kind of situation and often with the support of their family. So again, we can't apply todays rules to yesterdays ancestors. Judy Jun 5, 2011 11:38:37 AM, [email protected] wrote: =========================================== Thanks, Judy, for giving that example. I will point out, though, that my comment was that it was highly unusual for the unwed parents not to marry, not that they always did. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje To: [email protected] > > I would like to point out that an unwed mother did not always marry > the child's father nor did they marry someone else immediately. > Quoting from "Which Charles Fontyn?", NNC Issue 15, No. 1, March > 2010, page 7, under children of Johannes Fonteyn and Catharine > Willemse Cornel. > > Daughter number 2, Angenietje/Agnete, born say 1700 in Bushwick, > m. (1) William Prikket, deceased by 1728. When Williams widow, > Angenientje baptised, the minister recorded that "Agnete 3 mo old, > 28 Sept, 1729, the mother is Agnete Fontaynen, daughter of Hannes > Fontayne," "She gives as the father one Jacob Gulig, son of > Shreiners, unbaptised... Wit: Sarah wife of young Hannes Fontayne, > who is also unbaptised, though I did not now it." The baptism on > location by the pastor of the Lutheran Church of NYC . Agneitje > married (2), banns 29 March 1730 RDCh., Kingston, Ulster Co., NY, > William Lamb, j.m. b. Old England and Angenietjen Fonteyn, widow of > William Prikket both res. Ulster. > > Roswell Russell Hoes, Baptisms and Marriage Registers of the Old > Dutch Church of Kingston, Ulster Co., New York 1660-1809, 558, > citing entry 699; "Baptisms in the Lutheran Church of New York City > "NYGBR 97:169 & NYGBR 98 (1967);110; Kenneth E. Hasbrouck, Records > of the Dutch Reformed Church of Fishkill, Dutchess County, NY 1731- > 1850 (Unknown, 1959), 54, 64. > > The point here is that Angenietje, widow of William Prikket, was > an unwed mother, had a child out of wedlock after the death of her > first husband, did not marry Jacob Gulig the child's father, and a > year or so later married William Lamb, her second husband. > > Judy Cassidy > > Jun 5, 2011 08:28:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > =========================================== > > Wonderful discussion! > > Within the mores, beliefs, and practices of the time, it would have > been far, far more unusual for a child of Christian parents not to > have been baptized as an infant (nearly always under two months of > age) than for a pregnant unwed mother of any age not to marry. > Marriage rendered the premarital pregnancy acceptable, while the > opposite was a disaster. > > I have a question: > > In Martha Ballard's diary of 18th-century English-American life in > Maine, upon which was based Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's book "A > Midwife's Tale," she refers to young brides who married but > remained for a time in their parents' homes. Does anyone know > whether this was done among our Dutch-Americans ancestors? Martha > Ballard also describes the firestorm surrounding a young man who > would not marry the mother of his unborn child and the resulting > legal prosecution. Fascinating. > > I recommend Ulrich's book, which won a Pulitzer, but for our group > nowhere near as much as I recommend Firth Fabend's books for the > facts and context of our ancestors' lives as well as her > magnificent presentation of them. I'm pleased that she mentioned > her books. Also, I can't recommend enough her book "Zion on the > Hudson." > Nancy Terhune > Descendant of Grietje through three of her children > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Firth Fabend > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:35 am > Subject: [DUTCH-COLONIES] Cozyn and Vroutje > To: [email protected] > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Please let me recap what I tried to say this afternoon, while on > my > > i-phone > > during intermissions at the ballet at Lincoln Center. Some of > what > > I wanted > > to say went astray, and some I did not get a chance to say before > > the lights > > dimmed. Now I am at home and can address the questions in a more > > stableenvironment. > > > > I have six points to remark upon. > > > > 1. Grietje Cosyns' age at marriage. Yes, she was very young. > > But, she > > was within the legal limits according to Roman Dutch Law. Hugo > > Grotio,17th-century jurist and expert on Roman Dutch Law, wrote > > this: "Boys below > > the age of fourteen and girls below the age of twelve years may > not > > marry."And later he noted that "young men beneath the age of five > > and twenty, and > > young girls beneath the age of twenty, having both parents or one > > of them > > alive, might not marry without producing evidence of their consent." > > > > 2. EKK was sceptical as to whether a young girl, of 14 years, > > couldappear in court to defend herself. Again, according to Roman > > Dutch Law, yes, > > she could. Women did not have to have a man, father or husband, > > along with > > them in court. There are many instances in which women went to > > court to > > defend themselves, without benefit of husband or father. But such > a > > woman, I > > believe, would have had to have a certain self-confidence and > > gumption to do > > so. > > > > 3. EKK questioned whether a girl of 14 years could have owned > > land, such > > as Grietje's buckwheat fields. Yes, of course. Since Grietje > > married Herman > > van TH . . . , she had to have had a dowry. In this case, it > > appears, no > > documentary evidence to support or not, she had been given some > > land upon > > marrying Herman. This land, incidentally, became the nucleus of > the > > 200-acre > > Haring Farm in the Greenwich Viillage of 1784, when it was > > subdivided among > > the many heirs. All this is public knowledge. But I summed it up > in an > > article in de Halve Maen recently, "Cosyn Gerriten van Putten: New > > Amsterdam's Wheelwright." You can get the full citation on my > > website or > > through my Wikipedia entry. > > > > 4. Liz asked how I could support Howard Durie's description of > > Grietjeas "precocious." This was Howard Durie's description of > > Grietje Cosyns, and > > I came to agree with it, for these reasons: She not only married > > when she > > wanted to, no doubt against her parents' wishes, but she did it. > > She went to > > court to defend her buckwheat fields, without benefit of husband or > > father--and won. She knew her way around horses, because she is > > described as > > having jumped on Hendrick Petersen's horse, who was mauling her > > buckwheatfields, and galloped him to the Fresh Water. The record > > doesn't say she sent > > home and got a saddle to do this. She jumped on the offending horse > > bareback. That's fairly precocious, I would say. These slim > facts > > are what > > we have to go on. There isn't any more that I know of. I wish I did. > > > > 5. Someone asked whether there is any supporting evidence as > to > > her age. > > She was baptized in the NYDRC in 1641. I have seen a reference to > > her having > > died at age 90. I don't know where to put my finger on that at > this > > moment,but I did come across it this past week!! So that would > mean > > she lived until > > c. 1731. > > > > 6. Someone has suggested today, that by my mentioning my > > publicationsthat refer to Grietje Cosyns, I was "advertising" > them. > > No way. I was not > > advertising them. I was mentioning that they exist in order to > > INFORM those > > who might be paying attention that they exist.Listers might want > to be > > informed. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > Firth Haring Fabend, Grietje's granddaughter, 12 generations > hence> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUTCH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

EKK wrote: "BUT I find it hard to believe that a child 12 years, 11 months old, married Theuniszen VanZell on 19 April 1654 and married by a Dutch Reformed minister. 'It don't fit.' It does fit. Herman Theuniszen Van Zell was also underage at 19, and it is in the records that the authorities insisted he get a parent's permission to marry. This took six months, as the parent was back in the old country. They were married by the Rev. Samuel Drisius in the NYRDC.