To Jan Thank you I have already sent off for the Certificate so just to wait , I have yet to find his Birth , on his second marriage to Mary Ann Telford in 1909 , his age was 44 , that would make him born about 1865 , but three Certificates and many searches i have yet to find him , His Father James Murphy was a Merchant Seaman The same as him and the closes I have Found is a James Murphy born 1828 from Monkwearmouth Shore who had a son John 1857 Sunderland but no John William Murphy with father James who was a Merchant Seaman. Over a Year Later I,am Still looking , Some things take time Thanks to the 1911 Census whitch gave me a lot , john was missing there too His death in 1917 Poplar London was 52 unless I have missed something , Thanks agin Lesley