Hi there Thank you to those who responded re the Adoption problem. Maxine from Moss Vale

Hi Just wondered if anyone who likes a challenge can locate a missing death. John Tulloch (or Tullock and I tried as many other variants I could think of) was born c 1878 in Scotland, married Mary Urwin Jackson in Durham in 1898. They had 3 children born Durham and Gateshead between 1899 and 1902. Two of the children died, one in 1907 and the other in 1909 and I found their deaths easily. In the 1901 census they are at Gateshead and he is described as a plasterer age 24. On the 1911 census, Mary is a widow and living with her surviving son James in Durham. In 1913 she remarries, again in Durham. We have the newspaper cutting for the other sons death and John is not mentioned in that so I think he had died before 1909, however try as I might I can't seem to locate his death as the only entry vaguely near is 17 years too old. Its also after the date of Mary's remarriage whereas she described herself as a widow on the 1911 as I said. Any bright ideas? Thanks

Thank you Stan & Nivard,   Your information is always really helpful.   Kind regards, Clare --- Den tors 16/9/10 skrev dur-nbl-request@rootsweb.com <dur-nbl-request@rootsweb.com>: Fra: dur-nbl-request@rootsweb.com <dur-nbl-request@rootsweb.com> Emne: DUR-NBL Digest, Vol 5, Issue 182 Til: dur-nbl@rootsweb.com Dato: torsdag 16. september 2010 09.01 Administrivia: To unsubscribe from DUR-NBL-D, send a message to         DUR-NBL-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command         unsubscribe and no other text.  No subject line is necessary, but if your software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. To contact the DUR-NBL-D list administrator, send mail to DUR-NBL-admin@rootsweb.com. Today's Topics:    1. Probate (Mary Kitzerow)    2. Probate list (Ellen Radbrucke-Chomski)    3. Re: Probate list (Stan Mapstone)    4. Re: Probate list (Nivard Ovington)    5. College of Arms (Marg Smith) To contact the DUR-NBL list administrator, send an email to DUR-NBL-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the DUR-NBL mailing list, send an email to DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text.

Hi there I would like advice on a problem and thought this list might be able to help, even though it is not your area. I have a female baby, Nellie Farquharson, born in 1908 in Wimbledon, Kingston, Surrey, mother only on the B/C as a domestic servant. I have traced the mother Ada Elizabeth, (I think I have the right gal) through the census prior to 1908. She is not on 1911. This child was brought to Australia as Jessie Winter, child of Elizabeth Winter (nee Williams) in 1913. I have the Winter couple, Elizabeth and Thomas, in 1911 in Manchester with Jessie 2½. The husband Thomas does not appear to have come to Australia and older family members have no memories of him. Cannot find a death of Ada Elizabeth Farquharson and I am wondering about adoption laws/rules in UK at around the time 1908-1913. As this child was born in the Wimbledon area I am wondering how the Manchester couple managed to have her? There could be several answers on this question, friends, family? Elizabeth Winter was 41, listed on the 1911, so quite old to have had a child, if she did, couldn't find a birth at all of Jessie Winter. All things point to Nellie and Jessie being the same child but...... An older member of the family had professional genealogists research the Farquharson line in the late 1960s but I am sure now they chased the wrong Ada Elizabeth Farquharson.(Cumbria) If anyone on the list may be able to help I would be really pleased, or even point me in the direction to take. Maxine from Moss Vale

Hi Maxine Unfortunately official adoption only started in 1927 Any before that will be a private affair with little or no paperwork The only real likelihood of finding a paper trail is if the child was going to inherit , this does not sound like it applies to your situation and even then it would be a private affair and the papers probably destroyed by now Many pre 1927 adoptions were between family members, one childless couple taking on the illegitimate offspring of another family member Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) Hi there I would like advice on a problem and thought this list might be able to help, even though it is not your area. I have a female baby, Nellie Farquharson, born in 1908 in Wimbledon, Kingston, Surrey, mother only on the B/C as a domestic servant. I have traced the mother Ada Elizabeth, (I think I have the right gal) through the census prior to 1908. She is not on 1911. This child was brought to Australia as Jessie Winter, child of Elizabeth Winter (nee Williams) in 1913. I have the Winter couple, Elizabeth and Thomas, in 1911 in Manchester with Jessie 2½. The husband Thomas does not appear to have come to Australia and older family members have no memories of him. Cannot find a death of Ada Elizabeth Farquharson and I am wondering about adoption laws/rules in UK at around the time 1908-1913. As this child was born in the Wimbledon area I am wondering how the Manchester couple managed to have her? There could be several answers on this question, friends, family? Elizabeth Winter was 41, listed on the 1911, so quite old to have had a child, if she did, couldn't find a birth at all of Jessie Winter. All things point to Nellie and Jessie being the same child but...... An older member of the family had professional genealogists research the Farquharson line in the late 1960s but I am sure now they chased the wrong Ada Elizabeth Farquharson.(Cumbria) If anyone on the list may be able to help I would be really pleased, or even point me in the direction to take. Maxine from Moss Vale

Morning There is a rootsweb list focussing on Adoption ... http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Adoptions/ADOPTION-GEN.html There will be listers on there who know a lot about the process, important dates (re changes in procedures) and where to look for info/help. I'm sure that there will be someone will be able to 'point you in the right direction' Hope this helps Heather On 19/09/2010 01:32, Maxine wrote: > Hi there > I would like advice on a problem and thought this list might be able to help, even though it is not your area. > > <snip> > > If anyone on the list may be able to help I would be really pleased, or even point me in the direction to take. > > Maxine from Moss Vale

Thank you Adrian, Roy and Gavin for your replies and assistance. In another section of this pedigree, as well as "accepted" it adds "examined, and passed" by the College of Arms, so have emailed an enquiry to them, as suggested. Before posting to the list I actually used Google's Advanced Search to try and determine what was the "Huntbach manuscript" and whether the document was available for public access ... but nothing of any real assistance came up. Have now tried again with a little more success ... and established that Huntbach was referring to John Huntbach, but the actual manuscripts, and who possibly holds them (if they still exist) remains a mystery. So, have sent an enquiry to the William Salt Library, Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent Archives, so hopefully they may know the answers. Thank you again Marg Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> To: <DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [DUR-NBL] College of Arms > On 16 Sep 2010 at 10:47, Marg Smith wrote: > >> Hi List >> >> This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many >> talented people, someone may be able to help! I have had access to a >> very extensive genealogy, written by an American author, and which has >> been >> >> "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" >> >> I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have >> many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that a >> pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very >> credible?? >> >> The "Huntbach manuscript" is also mentioned as having a pedigree for >> this particular family. What is the "Huntbach manuscript" and is this >> document available for public access please? > > > Several thoughts arise..... > > 1) Just because a work is claimed by an author to have been accepted by > the College > of Arms, it doesn't necessarily mean this was the case. Have you checked > with the > College to query the authenticity of this statement? > > 2) The College of Arms, while certainly an ancient genealogical body, is > not infallible! > It was the College that instituted the much-vaunted Heralds' Visitations, > which I have > always regarded with some suspicion as to their 100 per cent accuracy. > Let's > remember that the Heralds who were calling on "gentleman" claiming a right > to arms, > by and large, accepted what the applicant told them. How much independent > evidence > did they assess? I have also had my suspicions that the applicant would > wine and dine > them right royally and that even on the odd occasion a plain brown > envelope might > have exchanged hands! > > Remember that in genealogy there have always been fakes and frauds and I > doubt > the College of Arms is immune. And then there were the infamous pedigrees > perpetuated by John Burke (of Burkes Peerage) in the 19th century when > nouveau > riche Victorian industrialists paid money to have a pedigree to go with > their newly > acquired wealth and Burke was happy to take their cash and give them what > they > wanted. > > It seems to me that a good piece of advice is never to accept anything > until you have > proved it yourself by your own researches. > > 3) A simple spot of Googling will turn up several references to the > Huntbach > manuscripts. > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: > www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > To Post a message to this list send it to, > DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > List Web Page > http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Thanks Margaret! Heather > From: mgt.hall.17@gmail.com > To: deanh61@hotmail.co.uk; dur-nbl-l@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [DUR-NBL] New Road, Newcastle. > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:18:28 +0100 > > New Road is now called City Road. > > Margaret Hall > Wallsend > www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dur-nbl-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dur-nbl-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of h dean > Sent: 17 September 2010 11:14 > To: dur-nbl-l@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DUR-NBL] New Road, Newcastle. > > > Hi > > > > I have an ancestor, Margaret Nicholson who was baptised at All Saints > Church, Newcastle in 1865. The abode was given as New Road. Does anyone > know where this would have been as I cant find it on the modern day 'google > maps'. > > > > thanks for any help. > > > > Heather >

Hi I have an ancestor, Margaret Nicholson who was baptised at All Saints Church, Newcastle in 1865. The abode was given as New Road. Does anyone know where this would have been as I cant find it on the modern day 'google maps'. thanks for any help. Heather

Marg, you should try contacting the college directly. My great great grandfather Thomas E Hurst Hodgson used a coat of arms and I sent a rather speculative e-mail to them asking if we was entitled to use it and I got a prompt very polite reply saying that he was not! Not a suprise as TEHH wasn't always on the right side of the law. Good luck Gavin Sent from my iPhone On 16 Sep 2010, at 01:47, "Marg Smith" <msmith47@tpg.com.au> wrote: > Hi List > > This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many > talented people, someone may be able to help! > I have had access to a very extensive genealogy, written by an > American author, and which has been > > "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" > > I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have > many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that > a pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very > credible?? > > The "Huntbach manuscript" is also mentioned as having a pedigree for > this particular family. What is the "Huntbach manuscript" and is > this document available for public access please? > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. > > Many thanks > > Marg Smith > > Mardi, NSW > > Australia > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > To Post a message to this list send it to, > DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > List Web Page > http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

On 16 Sep 2010 at 10:32, Roy Stockdill wrote: > 2) The College of Arms, while certainly an ancient genealogical body, > is not infallible! It was the College that instituted the much-vaunted > Heralds' Visitations, which I have always regarded with some suspicion > as to their 100 per cent accuracy. Let's remember that the Heralds who > were calling on "gentleman" claiming a right to arms, by and large, > accepted what the applicant told them. How much independent evidence > did they assess? I have also had my suspicions that the applicant > would wine and dine them right royally and that even on the odd > occasion a plain brown envelope might have exchanged hands! > I might add to the above by quoting from Mark Herber's book Ancestral Trails - widely regarded as a defining work on genealogy and perhaps the most comprehensive yet. Herber says in a section on the College of Arms, on page 629: "Much of the information submitted to the Heralds was oral tradition of the family (sometimes unreliable) backed up by monuments in the local church or documents in family archives." Which illustrates my point, I think. I equate the kind of "oral tradition" evidence given to the Heralds as akin to that shown in a recent WDYTYA? programme when an actor of African extraction was apparently given oral tradition of his ancestors - precisely the same sort of thing that happened with the "Roots" phenomenon instigated by the American author Alex Haley in the 1960s who claimed to have traced his ancestry back to an 18th century slave in The Gambia. This was widely regarded even by American genealogists as being fanciful and unreliable. On its most basic level, oral tradition can be as simple as great-aunt Maud claiming her grandfather was sired by the lord of the manor who had his wicked way with gt-gt- grandma, a kitchen maid! By all means we should listen to oral tradition, but on a scale of genealogical evidence I wouldn't give it more than about 2-3 out of 10. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi List This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many talented people, someone may be able to help! I have had access to a very extensive genealogy, written by an American author, and which has been "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that a pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very credible?? The "Huntbach manuscript" is also mentioned as having a pedigree for this particular family. What is the "Huntbach manuscript" and is this document available for public access please? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Marg Smith Mardi, NSW Australia

On 16 Sep 2010 at 3:13, ADRABBOTT@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 16/09/2010 01:47:42 GMT Daylight Time, > msmith47@tpg.com.au writes: > > "Hi List > > This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many > talented people, someone may be able to help! I have had access to a > very extensive genealogy, written by an American author, and which > has been > > "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" > > I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have > many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that a > pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very > credible?? " > > After my somewhat limited experience of the College of Arms, I would > say that "accepted by" means no more than somebody gave it to them and > they accepted it, quite possibly never even reading it. If the > description was "endorsed by" that could mean a lot more. > > Adrian > I agree with Adrian 's assessment. The word "accepted" is VERY ambiguous indeed! We at the Society of Genealogists have a very large collection of private family histories and pedigrees which we have accepted as a depository of records. But to expect somebody to read every single one and check them out would be utterly ludicrous. I suspect the same applies to the College of Arms, since their staff numbers are minimal. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 16 Sep 2010 at 10:47, Marg Smith wrote: > Hi List > > This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many > talented people, someone may be able to help! I have had access to a > very extensive genealogy, written by an American author, and which has > been > > "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" > > I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have > many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that a > pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very > credible?? > > The "Huntbach manuscript" is also mentioned as having a pedigree for > this particular family. What is the "Huntbach manuscript" and is this > document available for public access please? > Several thoughts arise..... 1) Just because a work is claimed by an author to have been accepted by the College of Arms, it doesn't necessarily mean this was the case. Have you checked with the College to query the authenticity of this statement? 2) The College of Arms, while certainly an ancient genealogical body, is not infallible! It was the College that instituted the much-vaunted Heralds' Visitations, which I have always regarded with some suspicion as to their 100 per cent accuracy. Let's remember that the Heralds who were calling on "gentleman" claiming a right to arms, by and large, accepted what the applicant told them. How much independent evidence did they assess? I have also had my suspicions that the applicant would wine and dine them right royally and that even on the odd occasion a plain brown envelope might have exchanged hands! Remember that in genealogy there have always been fakes and frauds and I doubt the College of Arms is immune. And then there were the infamous pedigrees perpetuated by John Burke (of Burkes Peerage) in the 19th century when nouveau riche Victorian industrialists paid money to have a pedigree to go with their newly acquired wealth and Burke was happy to take their cash and give them what they wanted. It seems to me that a good piece of advice is never to accept anything until you have proved it yourself by your own researches. 3) A simple spot of Googling will turn up several references to the Huntbach manuscripts. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

In a message dated 16/09/2010 01:47:42 GMT Daylight Time, msmith47@tpg.com.au writes: "Hi List This posting may not be relevant to the list, but with so many talented people, someone may be able to help! I have had access to a very extensive genealogy, written by an American author, and which has been "Accepted by the College of Arms, 7 January 1932" I understand College of Arms is also involved in genealogy and have many pedigrees in their records, so am I correct in believing that a pedigree accepted by this organisation would be considered as very credible?? " After my somewhat limited experience of the College of Arms, I would say that "accepted by" means no more than somebody gave it to them and they accepted it, quite possibly never even reading it. If the description was "endorsed by" that could mean a lot more. Adrian

Hi Clare, On Ancestry England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941 This collection contains summaries of the vast majority of probate cases in England and Wales between 1861 and 1941. It effectively forms an index to wills and probate records for this period. Stan Mapstone On 15 September 2010 18:24, Ellen Radbrucke-Chomski <ellen_radbruckechomski@yahoo.dk> wrote: > > Hello, > > I noticed that there was a request for someone to search the Probate lists, so I assume it is not an open access list. Please could you give me more information about this list? > > Thank you for your help, > > Clare > > > >  ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > To Post a message to this list send it to, > DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > List Web Page > http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Clare >From Ancestry About England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941 This collection contains summaries of the vast majority of probate cases in England and Wales between 1861 and 1941. It effectively forms an index to wills and probate records for this period. The records were created by the Probate Registry, which took control of proving wills and administrations in 1858. Before this, four different types of ecclesiastical (church) courts dealt with these cases. A Principal Probate Registry was established in London in January 1858, and several district probate registries were created around the country. From then on, the registries oversaw all grants of probate and letters of administration. This collection is the Calendar of these grants. The Calendar is separated into a different volume for each year. The entries in each volume are then alphabetised by surname. Information varies across different entries, but each typically includes: * Probate date * Full name of the deceased * Death date * Death place * Registry where issued Missing volumes: Our collection covers 80 years from 1861 to 1941. We currently do not have the books for the years 1858-1860 and there are some gaps for the years 1863, 1868, 1873, 1876, 1877, 1883, 1888, 1899-1903 and 1910-1911. However, we hope to add records for these years as soon as possible. ===================== Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hello, > > I noticed that there was a request for someone to search the Probate > lists, so I assume it is not an open access list. Please could you give me > more information about this list? > > Thank you for your help, > > Clare

Hello, I noticed that there was a request for someone to search the Probate lists, so I assume it is not an open access list. Please could you give me more information about this list? Thank you for your help, Clare

Hello, I was very interested in reading about the probates. I have a much older ancestor that supposedly had a will and have had no luck tracing it. Isaac Dove died 20th May 1849. He was a master mariner, and may have had some property in Jamiaca. (Oral history). He had a will, but an old letter says "my father's brother had papers and wills in his hands at one time and as far as I know gave them to someone to look after it and so lost them---it has been for (lack) of money to have sent a proper man (to London) I think people with property in different countries had different rules on wills. Does anyone have an idea? Thanks, Mary Kitzerow, Isaac's 2gr grandaughter www.marymckenziekitzerow.com

Thanks to Kate, Ruth and Louise for a speedy response to my queries.I now have the info. for William and Andrew Easton. James Easton was from Tillmouth, Northumberland 1819-1891 and may well have had nothing to leave. David Dunn 1845-1925 died in Edinburgh so perhaps his effects would not show up. Again many thanks, Mary