Hi Eileen Don't assume that, because Frances' death certificate shows she as a widow, this is true. With a seafaring husband, he may have just "strayed". Like Jenny, I have seafaring ancestors and this is more common that you may imagine. And, like Jill TURNER's note, I have many name changes and borrowed identities, too. I have, for my own Father, 3 separate identities and a black hole: John William Frederick FORREST, b. 4 Aug 1882 in North Shields (true), joins the Royal Garrison Artillery in 1904 as John William GILBERT (the married name of his elder sister), appears as JWFF in Southampton, married with 2 children, last born 1914, disappears in 1919 from the Isle of Wight and then reappears in the 1930's in Hammersmith, London, as William James LOVE, "b. 4 Aug 1887". This identity, I believe, is based on a Liverpool sailor! 1919-1934 is a mystery but I'm homing in on a William LOVE sailing out of Bermuda! The moral is "Never believe what anyone writes down without conclusive corroborating evidence". In the case of a death certificate, it is hearsay. Best regards, John ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:17:03 -0000 From: "Eileen Sturt" <eileen.sturt@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [DUR-NBL] John Williamson , Mariner To: <DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <002701c73106$82e52a90$0201a8c0@eileenbb6cb466> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello Jenny, Many thanks for all your "techniques" for extracting the information from the census returns- they have been a great help and I have had lots of fun exploring . Your discovery of a possible John Williamson senior though,in 1871, can't be correct because he had died before his wife Frances died early in 1867. Her death certificate shows her a widow. I have written to the holders of the Wellesley records and am hoping they come up with some clues about the boys' parentage. I will try the Mariners list too as I now feel sure I have the correct ship in 1861 and, as you say, someone is likely to know whether or not she went down, etc. Thanks once again, Eileen

Hi looking at census records re Georges place of birth, my money goes on this record. Or is this one of your costly mistakes? best of luck carol Name:George Pringle Year of Registration:1876 Quarter of Registration:Apr-May-Jun District:Chester Le Street County:Durham Volume:10a Page:606 (click to see others on page) His sister emma is also registered here. Name: Emma Pringle Year of Registration: 1880 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Chester Le Street County: Durham Volume: 10a Page: 509 (click to see others on page)

Hi heres 1891 with his mam and dad George Pringle Age: 14 Estimated birth year: abt 1877 Relation: Son Father's name: Robert Mother's name: Maryan Gender: Male Where born: Chester Moor, Durham, England Civil parish: Broom Ecclesiastical parish: St Edmunds Town: Ushaw Moor Image sent off list. carol NameAge Emma Pringle11 George Pringle14 Isabella Pringle1 Margaret Pringle12 Maryan Pringle33 Maryan Pringle7 Robert Pringle36

Thanks to John, Carole and Beryl for their help. Any further contributions always welcomed! Jan

Hi everyone and a happy new year. My interests are as follows:- BELL, HUNTER - Sunderland BEECH, KELL, BLINCOW - Middlesbrough and Northwich. Regards Gill Best Wishes Gill

Hello Jenny, Many thanks for all your "techniques" for extracting the information from the census returns- they have been a great help and I have had lots of fun exploring . Your discovery of a possible John Williamson senior though,in 1871, can't be correct because he had died before his wife Frances died early in 1867. Her death certificate shows her a widow. I have written to the holders of the Wellesley records and am hoping they come up with some clues about the boys' parentage. I will try the Mariners list too as I now feel sure I have the correct ship in 1861 and, as you say, someone is likely to know whether or not she went down, etc. Thanks once again, Eileen

In a message dated 05/01/2007 11:20:49 GMT Standard Time, janmoore@ntlworld.com writes: >>information about any SMALL family in the North East welcome, no matter their origin Hi Jan, My SMALLs start with David (my g.g.grandfather) b. 1810 in Wooler, married Alison and between 1831 and 1843 they had sons John, David, William, Robert and Watson. The first 3 were born in Norham, the last 2 in Kyloe and Bamburgh. The succeeding generations were mainly from Berwick and then Edinburgh. No apparent connection with yours but if you think there is, please get in touch. Regards, Ian

Happy New Year everyone! I'm looking forward to another year of making further discoveries, so thought I would post my interests: SMALL especially in South Shields but information about any SMALL family in the North East welcome, no matter their origin Any info on Charles SMALL born late 1700s poss South Shields - is his father Robert and his mother Thomasin? BELL Any info regarding Dorothy SMALL nee BELL born ?1790 South Shields/Washington? ; married Charles SMALL (shipwright) at St Paul's Jarrow, 30 Jan 1808. Dorothy and Charles moved to Chatham, Kent between 1810-1814 (have found several christenings there 1814 -1826). The family obviously moved back in the late 1820s after daughter Caroline's birth (1826) and before Francis' marriage in 1831. Have not yet found any death/burial info on either Dorothy or Charles MACKINGS (also seen without the 's', or 'gs'), written in Scarborough marriage register as MACHINS. Scarborough/ South Shields NORMANDALE Scarborough/ South Shields HEDLEY Any info on a Margaret Hedley b abt 1810 South Shields, married Francis Bell SMALL in Christ Church Tynemouth 10 Apr 1831. This is all I know about my gggrandmother Happy hunting to all! Jan .

To Macha,Nivard and Jean MacRae. Many thanks for your replies,most helpfull. Many thanks again Tony

HI Eilieen, I might have had a stroke of luck with your elder John Williamson,provided of course that he too was a Mariner as his sons later became. Of course I could be barking up completely the wrong tree but I couldn't not pass this on to you just in case it is of use. I went to the 1871 census and typed in John Williamson and nothing else apart from putting into the keyword box the one word - vessels. I got up 11 results and there was only one John Williamson with a connection to Scotland. He is shown as born about 1831 West Lothian Scotland but is on board a vessel in Northumberland. I am wondering if this might be the father of your Thomas and John Williamson? I went to the image and found that he is on board a ship called Britannia, he is shown as born a Linlithgow and is aged 40 and married, his position on board the ship is as Fireman. I then went to the first page of the schedule, by following the Vessel link at the top of the page as I described to you before in my ealire message. Once I got up the front page of the schedule for the Britannia I saw that she was registered at Leith Scotland and her registration number is given, she was a Paddle Steamer working in the Coasting Trade. At midnight on census night she was at Newcastle Quay. This entry might be worth following up, if you think it is then you could perhaps check the LDS Family History LIbrary Catalogue to see if they have Crew Lists at all on film for 1870-1871 and if so select the film that contains the relevant range of Ships numbers which contains the number of the Britannia. You could then hire that film at your nearest LDS for a small fee and once it arrives go and look at it to see a little more about John Williamson when he signed on for the voyage/s on board the Britannia. The ref. for this entry of the 1871 is RG10 piece5111 folio138 no page numbers for ships as you have the name of the ship instead. My Gt. Gt. Grandfather was a mariner from North Shields and later sailed from Hartlepool where the family moved to. He was a Master Mariner and mastered a ship which he was part owner of. The ship was in the Coasting trade, this meant that he could only sail around the coast of England but it also meant that he could sail across to Hamburg, his ship was a collier brig and he was entitled to call at any port along the coast that had a coal dock, according to the crew lists I found for his ship. His sons went to sea with their father as apprentices and my Gt. Grandfather became a Master Mariner too later on but he went further afield on his voyages. Hope this is not too muddly to make sense of and that it does help. Regards Jenny DeAngelis. Spain.

My step-grandfather - a ships engineer, evaded the 1901 census. Born Mark Langford in 1876, he ran away to sea and changed his name - later known as Mark Turnbull. Neither name appears on the census - I have searched everywhere, including all vessels.However, I have found a double entry for an 'Alex Turnbull' - he appears both at home in South Shields and at sea aboard the SS Stephanotis - definitely the same person.I have recently learnt that Mark stole ID papers from a dying man so that he could join a ship. This could be the ID he stole - and later kept the Turnbull part. I have information about his life both before and after 1901 - but not the reason why he left South Shields! Any suggestions gratefully received! Regards Jill TurnerJill Turner

Hi Eileen This may be of interest - you will find the Lucy here. Database of ships http://www.reach.net/~sc001198/Lloyds.htm Maybe someone will have some ideas for my own mystery. My step-grandfather - a ships engineer, evaded the 1901 census. Born Mark Langford in 1876, he ran away to sea and changed his name - later known as Mark Turnbull. Neither name appears on the census - I have searched everywhere, including all vessels. However, I have found a double entry for an 'Alex Turnbull' - he appears both at home in South Shields and at sea aboard the SS Stephanotis - definitely the same. I have recently learnt that Mark stole ID papers from a dying man so that he could join a ship. This could be the ID he stole - and later kept the Turnbull part. Any ideas how I could pursue this theory? Any suggestions gratefully received!RegardsJill Turner > From: jennyda@terra.es> To: eileen.sturt@tiscali.co.uk; DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:27:39 +0100> Subject: Re: [DUR-NBL] duplicated message re Forster, Williamson etc.> > HI Eileen,> > Not all vessels that were at sea during the 1871 census are included in the > online census at Ancestry, the Lucy may not have gone down at all but might > just be one of the ships not included in the images of that census online. > If the Lucy was a Merchant vessel then she probably is not included in the > 1871 images, if however, she was a Royal Naval vessel then she probably > would have been included.> > You would need to check things like the Lloyd's list of shipping and such > like. The Mariners website should be helpful with ideas of what you need to > look at to find out if the Lucy went down or what happened to her. You > could also ask on the Mariners mailing list whether anyone knows anything > about the Lucy, give them what details you can about her, say that your > ancestor died between the 1861 and 1871 and you wonder whether the Lucy went > down during that period, and see if anyone can add anything further.> > One way to check is to go to the Ancestry site, select a census, for > instance the 1871, then when you get up the search pane rather than fill > that in a search, scroll down to below the search fields and you will see a > list of county names and in amongst those would be Vessels, if merchant > vessels are included, and also you should see Royal Navy which will give you > the link to Vessel and the alphabetical list of ships names that I gave you > yesterday. You should be able to do this on all the census except the 1841 > and 1851.> > Ships at sea and in British ports were not included in the 1841 census at > all, only people who slept the night of census night on dry land were > included in that census.> > The 1851 did include ships that were in British ports but not those that > were in sea, but these are not online as they have not all been kept by the > national archive, as I understand it from my enquiries into the ships > schedules of the 1851.> > The 1861 census was the first census to include not only ships in British > ports but also those that were on the high seas and in foreign ports on > census night. The master of each vessel was given the schedule for his ship > before his ship sailed on the voyage that would take her away over census > night. The master duly filled out the schedule and handed it in at his > first port of call where there was either a British Consul, if in a foreign > country or to the General Registrar at a British port. This is my > understanding of things. The later census included ships at sea and in > ports in the same way.> > I have the image of my ancestors, merchant, ship from the 1861 and that > first page of the schedule giving the ships details shows the compass > position that she was at midnight on census night, this compass position > shows that she was off the coast of Lowestoft Suffolk and 6 miles from the > Dudgeon Light. I was told by the subscribers to the Mariners list what the > compass position meant and that the Dudgeon light was a light ship, anchored > out at sea rather than a lighthouse on land, but today it is a light bouy. > You can see from this how useful that first side of the schedule of a ship > at sea can be if you can get hold of one.> > Another thing I got hold of was the crew lists from 1860 for the same vessel > on LDS film. You need the ships registration number so that you can order > the correct film, the film that contains that ships number. The crew list > showed me how much each crew member was paid for the voyage and what > position they signed on as.> > Those same crew lists also told me the number of the masters certificate > that my ancestor held and from that I was able to order a copy of that > certificate and the testimonials that went with it form the National > Maritime Museum Greenwich London. So you can learn a lot about a man who > went to sea on a merchant vessel, which you imply your mariners did once > they left the navy.> > Regards> Jenny DeAngelis.> Spain.> > > Eileen Wrote> << I found a John Williamson on board the ship "Lucy" in 1861, a> cook and able seaman from Lerwick, Shetland and discovered that "Lucy" was> then in Hamburg. Going back from there, it looks like my Grandfather could> have been right about the Scottish connection because there was one John> Williamson born in Lerwick with a father called Thomas! Now I need to find> out where and when John died between 1861 and 1867 when his wife died, a> widow. The Lucy is not listed for the 1871 census so perhaps she went down,> taking my g.g. grandfather with her? >>> > > > > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ====> To Post a message to this list send it to,> DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com> > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ====> List Web Page> http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All Thanks to a great friend (and Durham Mining Museum), I now know a bit more about George Lowthers death in Roddymoor pit 16th March1862. William Ditchburn was initially accused of manslaughter but an update on Durham Mining Museum after I forwarded them a copy of Georges death cert, tells us that "The coroner's jury found a verdict of manslaughter against William Ditchburn the hooker-on, but the grand jury at the assizes threw out the bill, and he was not tried on the inquisition." Now i need to know if there will be any further record of this anywhere as i really want to know more about William Ditchburn as i suspect he is related to George and me. Any suggsetions? carol http://www.dmm2.org.uk/individ/i02856.htm

HI Eileen, Not all vessels that were at sea during the 1871 census are included in the online census at Ancestry, the Lucy may not have gone down at all but might just be one of the ships not included in the images of that census online. If the Lucy was a Merchant vessel then she probably is not included in the 1871 images, if however, she was a Royal Naval vessel then she probably would have been included. You would need to check things like the Lloyd's list of shipping and such like. The Mariners website should be helpful with ideas of what you need to look at to find out if the Lucy went down or what happened to her. You could also ask on the Mariners mailing list whether anyone knows anything about the Lucy, give them what details you can about her, say that your ancestor died between the 1861 and 1871 and you wonder whether the Lucy went down during that period, and see if anyone can add anything further. One way to check is to go to the Ancestry site, select a census, for instance the 1871, then when you get up the search pane rather than fill that in a search, scroll down to below the search fields and you will see a list of county names and in amongst those would be Vessels, if merchant vessels are included, and also you should see Royal Navy which will give you the link to Vessel and the alphabetical list of ships names that I gave you yesterday. You should be able to do this on all the census except the 1841 and 1851. Ships at sea and in British ports were not included in the 1841 census at all, only people who slept the night of census night on dry land were included in that census. The 1851 did include ships that were in British ports but not those that were in sea, but these are not online as they have not all been kept by the national archive, as I understand it from my enquiries into the ships schedules of the 1851. The 1861 census was the first census to include not only ships in British ports but also those that were on the high seas and in foreign ports on census night. The master of each vessel was given the schedule for his ship before his ship sailed on the voyage that would take her away over census night. The master duly filled out the schedule and handed it in at his first port of call where there was either a British Consul, if in a foreign country or to the General Registrar at a British port. This is my understanding of things. The later census included ships at sea and in ports in the same way. I have the image of my ancestors, merchant, ship from the 1861 and that first page of the schedule giving the ships details shows the compass position that she was at midnight on census night, this compass position shows that she was off the coast of Lowestoft Suffolk and 6 miles from the Dudgeon Light. I was told by the subscribers to the Mariners list what the compass position meant and that the Dudgeon light was a light ship, anchored out at sea rather than a lighthouse on land, but today it is a light bouy. You can see from this how useful that first side of the schedule of a ship at sea can be if you can get hold of one. Another thing I got hold of was the crew lists from 1860 for the same vessel on LDS film. You need the ships registration number so that you can order the correct film, the film that contains that ships number. The crew list showed me how much each crew member was paid for the voyage and what position they signed on as. Those same crew lists also told me the number of the masters certificate that my ancestor held and from that I was able to order a copy of that certificate and the testimonials that went with it form the National Maritime Museum Greenwich London. So you can learn a lot about a man who went to sea on a merchant vessel, which you imply your mariners did once they left the navy. Regards Jenny DeAngelis. Spain. Eileen Wrote << I found a John Williamson on board the ship "Lucy" in 1861, a cook and able seaman from Lerwick, Shetland and discovered that "Lucy" was then in Hamburg. Going back from there, it looks like my Grandfather could have been right about the Scottish connection because there was one John Williamson born in Lerwick with a father called Thomas! Now I need to find out where and when John died between 1861 and 1867 when his wife died, a widow. The Lucy is not listed for the 1871 census so perhaps she went down, taking my g.g. grandfather with her? >>

Hi Tony - is there nothing on Thomas and Ediths' marriage certificate which should give you his father's name and occupation? If Thomas' age is on the certificate you can then go back to his birth certificate which again should have his father's name and his mother's name and address. Regards. Macha in NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: <tony.caple@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:52 AM Subject: [DUR-NBL] Thomas Cubbin FINLAY > Hi Everyone > Could anyone advise !! > Trying to find the parents on Thomas Cubbin FINLAY born April 1884 in > Newcastle. > Thomas married Edith JACKSON in 1911 in South Shields. > > Many thanks > > > Tony in Bristol UK > > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > To Post a message to this list send it to, > DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > List Web Page > http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: 3/01/2007 > >

Helllo list, I have a new surname,CARR, to add to my research. In 1854 at St. Mary Morpeth William MCALISTER, 20,gardener,son of Archibald,laborourer, married Margaret CARR,21,dau.of Andrew Carr,hatter.. These two are my Gt.Gt.Grandparents - their daughter Jane married Robert Wilson Armstrong 1876 at the beautiful little church in Corsenside (which I visited last summer!) The McAlister surname seems to have lost it's Mc by this time and become ALLISTER. Anyone else out there interested in these connections? Brenda in Suffolk

With New Year coming in though it appropriate to repost my interests. Listed below some specific and general families I am researching. Any links wrt ancestors or descendants appreciated. Brian Snaith Yoxall, Staffs. PATTISON – John Nicholson (1802-1883) - Gateshead -Methodist Lay Preacher married Isabella (nee SNAITH) in 1823 REAY – Thomas (b 1808) –Gateshead-Blacksmith, Engineer married Mary (nee SNAITH) in 1830 HOWSON – Alfred (b 1857) Gateshead – Accountant married Elizabeth Jane SNAITH in 1880. Family last known living in Stocksfield, Northumberland (1901). Son Charles b 1882 Low Fell – Miner in area up to 1945 WINSHIP – Joseph (b 1796 Newburn, Northumberland) married Jane HUNTLEY ( b 1800 Birtley) in 1815 at Washington , lived in Moorsley/Rainton area. Others SLAVEN/SLAVIN ( Jarrow area post 1861) SNAITH ( any in Teessdale, Gateshead, Newcastle areas) NURSE (Jarrow, South Shields area post 1900)

> My wife's family is Aitchison, & her gt-gt-grandfather was John Aitchison, > born Belford 1819. He married Eleanor Hamilton< Hi Paul, In that part of Northumberland I have come to expect irregular Border marriages, which were valid in law though the Church of Scotland the various non-conformist Ministers in Northumberland disapproved. Only a few records of these survive. You seem to have a great deal more luck than I, however, as volume II of Irregular Border Marriages published by the Northumberland County Archives Service and the Northumberland & Durham Family History Society has the following: "6 Feb 1841 (date of notice in newspaper) Lamberton Toll, 31st ult (date of marriage) Mr John Aitchison to Miss Ellen Hamilton, both of Belford". For more information about Border marriages see www.genuki.org.uk Vols I & II of Irregular Border Marriages can be obtained (and purchased on-line) from the Northumberland & Durham Family History Society http://www.ndfhs.org.uk Good luck, Ingrid, NZ

Thank you Carol G., Helen Oram & Shaun for the information regarding Low Spennymoor. I realized immediately that I had bungled the spelling of the place name... and that my use of "more" rather than "moor" was due to typing from memory rather than from the record itself. Each of the links has provided me with a much greater insight and I greatly appreciate the help! Best wishes, Bette

In message <043a01c72f9a$2a1d49a0$6501a8c0@owner5qmruj7lq>, Bette McIntosh <bmcintosh@new.rr.com> writes >Dear Listers, > >I have ordered & received a copy of a County Durham death registration >for a coal miner which states that the death occurred in 1870 in "Low >Spennymore Ferryhill". > >Could someone elaborate on this information for me. What specific >locale is meant by this particular reference ("Low Spennymore >Ferryhill") and would there be any way of knowing from this death >record which colliery location would have likely been the deceased's >place of employment? > >Thank you & happy new year to all, >Bette Hello Bette, Go to Old Maps at <http://www.old-maps.co.uk/> and look up Grid Ref: 426922,533500 for a 1861 map of Low Spennymoor, which is just to the east of Spennymoor. Now it is all one town. If you have problems finding Spennymoor in church records or census, it may be under Whitworth in earlier records. The death certificate gives Ferryhill as that was the nearest town to Low Spennymoor. Mines in the area: One of them was Whitworth Park Colliery. Here is a list of mines within a 5 mile radius with operating dates - there are lots in the area so narrowing it down will be quite difficult: <http://www.dmm.org.uk/collnear/w011.htm> Regards, -- Helen Oram