In a message dated 15/01/2007 14:06:51 GMT Standard Time, Georger14738@aol.com writes: Records and send for the certificates. Most of my research is before 1837. ______________________________________________________ Hi George, I assume you know that before 1837 there are no certificates. Do you mean Parish Records? Regards Stan Mapstone

Starting back with my family tree after a couple of years break. With living in Durham is there anywhere on the net where i can search the Northumberland Records and send for the certificates. Most of my research is before 1837. Thank you in advance. George

Jeffrey I sent you some significant information regarding Minnie Ordell Smith and did not receive a response from you so I was wondering if perhaps the e-mails went astray. Could you let me know if you received them. I am sending this on the list as well in case your e-mail is not working properly or I am doing something incorrect. Thanks Jackie (Toronto, Canada)

Hello List All Saints Cemetery Newcastle upon Tyne has now been added to the British War Memorial website at www.wargraves.org.uk/ Images are available of the individual headstones of casualties listed as buried there on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission list also any service personel who are remembered on private headstones who have died since 1914. The images are not shown on the site but can be requested no charge is made for them Grant

Many thanks to Heather, Stanmapstone and Colin for their replies. I will have to keep on searching. Patrick Lewis Adelaide Australia -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/620 - Release Date: 8/01/2007

Hi Bette I to understand HETHERINGTON to be quite common in the Borders, as are most of my Northumberland and Durham names, even if they are not common elsewhere. If you have not already come across it, George McDonald Fraser's book The Steel Bonnets gives an insight into many of the names of the Borders, and into the bloodiest period there. Though it is a bit heavey going at times http://preview.tinyurl.com/trvtx Cheers Steve -- Researching Cairns, Dodsworth, Douglas, Hetherington, Hume, Pringle, Taylor, Wilson, Wintrip in Northumberland UK Cockburn, Dobson, Forster, Headlam, Hogg, Mackay, Maggs, Pringle, Tate in County Durham UK Hetherington, Huntington in Cumbria UK (pre 1846) Forster in North Yorkshire UK Barnard, Binks, Dowsett, Duncombe, Fairhead, Kemp, Ovel, Rudkin, Sibley, Smith, Spurgeon, Wendon in Essex UK Bunt(Bunts; Bunce) in Devon UK Caddy, Gluyas in Cornwall UK Cottle, Frances, Maggs, Plummer, Weaver in Somerset UK Corfield, Lees, Taylor in Willenhall, Staffordshire UK Bette McIntosh wrote: > Hi Steve, Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me re the > HETHERINGTONs of your focus. I am not surprised that I did not > recognize anyone whom your listed in your tree but then it is my > understanding that the HETHERINGTON name was commonplace especially in > the Cumbria/NBL area. Given this & the fact that my only known > HETHERINGTON connection occured much earlier (farther backward) in my > search for family history I would say that we do not share a common > thread, at least at this level of the research effort. > > Good luck with your search. > > Trying to leave no stone unturned, > Bette > USA > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" <steveshistory2@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Bette McIntosh" <bmcintosh@new.rr.com>; <DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [DUR-NBL] Hetherington - Was Off topic. I'm back. > > >> Hi Bette >> >> My earliest Hetherington is Joseph, born c1817 Abbeyholm, Cumbria. >> He married Julia Martha HUNTIGTON in 1838 at Cockermouth, Cumbria >> They had >> Jane 1844 Bridekirk Cumbria >> Thomas 1846 Newcastle-u-Tyne >> Euphemia 1847 Ogle - died 1853 Newcastle >> Julia 1850 West Chevington >> William 1855 Benwell >> Mary 1860 Longbenton >> >> Thomas married Sarah TAYLOR in 1874 and they lived in the West >> Chevington/Widrington area for the rest of their lives. >> They had 7 or 8 children, the 4th one being my wife's grandmother. >> >> Cheers >> Steve >> >> >> >> Bette McIntosh wrote: >>> Steve, >>> >>> If I may ask could you to please elaborate on your search for the >>> HETHERINGTON surname... the when (dates) & where (locations). I >>> have a research interest in this particular surname as it relates to >>> Whitfield, Redheugh and Allendale, NBL ca. 1700s. Specifically one >>> John HETHERINGTON and daughter Elizabeth. Elizabeth married a >>> William BURDESS in Allendale, NBL 19 July 1788. >>> >>> Bette >

I would like to add my information to this debate. I have a copy of a Parish marriage & it states the husband was a bachelor and spouse a spinster and i know for a fact they were both married previously and had children both their spouses had died. This marriage was solemnized at St Stephen's South Shields 1867. I also have two instances of marriage certificates where fathers were dead and not stated on the certificate. These people had a stepfather so maybe that is why they had not put deceased . Joan On the central Coast of N.S.W Australia From: "Kelly Paquette" <kelly@vaxxine.com> Date: 13 January 2007 1:36:16 PM To: <DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com> Subject: [DUR-NBL] Marriage certificates I have 2 questions concerning an 1874 marriage certificate I just received and I hope someone may be able to help me. First, the groom is listed as a bachelor and I am almost certain that he was married in 1869 to someone else, had a child and then the wife died. Would it be unusual to be listed as a bachelor if he was a widower? Secondly, if the father of the bride were deceased, would it say "deceased" under father's profession, or would it list his occupation when he was living? I am almost positve her father died soon after she was born as he did not appear in any subsequent censuses. Would different parishes/ministers do things differently or were there strict guide lines? Any insight to these questions would be greatly appreciated. Kelly in Canada

At the census of 1851 householders were asked to state the county and town or parish against the names of those born in the county of enumeration; while a statement of country of birth was asked in respect of those born in another part of Great Britain, in Ireland, the British Colonies, the East Indies or in foreign parts, and British subjects born in foreign parts had to be specified as such. From 1861 British subjects by birth born in foreign parts had to be distinguished from those who were naturalised, and from 1901 country of nationality, as distinct from birth, had to be given. The Naturalisation Act 1870 states that "any person born within the dominions of Her Majesty is a natural-born subject, as is any person born out of Her Majesty's dominions of a father being a British Subject. A married woman shall be deemed to be a subject of the state of which her husband is for the time being a subject." http://www.movinghere.org.uk/search/catalogue.asp?RecordID=77092&ResourceTypeI D=2&sequence=5 Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 14/01/2007 01:21:30 GMT Standard Time, kelly@vaxxine.com writes: Further to the discussion on British Subjects, I have an ancestor born in Holland, living in England and listed on the census as BS (what an acronym!). Would anyone know how one became a British Subject? Was there any paperwork to fill out and if so, where would this be located? ___________________________________________________________________ They were a British Subject because their parents were British Subjects. If they were NBS then there would be paperwork, see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=242&j=1 Regards Stan Mapstone

I've just bought yet another irrelevant marriage certificate (to me at least). Details for those who are interested: 1876 Marriage solemnized at St. Dominic's Catholic Church in the district of Newcastle Upon Tyne in the County's of Newcastle Upon Tyne and Northumberland 13.11.1876 James O'BRIEN - 36 - Batchelor - Chain Maker - residing at Ripponden Street Newcastle - Father James O'BRIEN (deceased) - Blacksmith Margaret Munday - 35 - Spinster - Residing at Ripponden Street Newcastle - Father Charles Munday (deceased) - Labourer Signed: James O'BRIEN X the mark of Margaret MUNDAY Witnesses: X the mark of Michael Drivit (looks like!) Mary Witty Married in the St. Dominic's Catholic Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church by Certificate by me Abraham S. Sylvester Priest, John Routledge Registrar Regards Pete ___________________________________________________________ What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk

My ancestor was born in Holland to Dutch parents and moved to England and married an English citizen. Kelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mgt Fuller" <MgtFuller@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "Kelly Paquette" <kelly@vaxxine.com> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: RE: [DUR-NBL] British Subject >I have a cousin who had two children in Germany but they are British > Subjects as their parents were British Subjects. Was your relative born to > Dutch parents or were they British citizens working out in Holland?. > > Margaret. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dur-nbl-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dur-nbl-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kelly Paquette > Sent: 14 January 2007 01:19 > To: DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DUR-NBL] British Subject > > > Further to the discussion on British Subjects, I have an ancestor born in > Holland, living in England and listed on the census as BS (what an > acronym!). Would anyone know how one became a British Subject? Was there > any paperwork to fill out and if so, where would this be located? Thanks, > Kelly in Canada > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > To Post a message to this list send it to, > DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== > List Web Page > http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Further to the discussion on British Subjects, I have an ancestor born in Holland, living in England and listed on the census as BS (what an acronym!). Would anyone know how one became a British Subject? Was there any paperwork to fill out and if so, where would this be located? Thanks, Kelly in Canada

I have a John Smith who married a Jane Smith but with so many Smiths around then it is not so surprising that two Smiths would marry each other at sometime. But a McMullen marrying a McMullen might not be something that would happen very often. It does sound as though Sarah used her maiden name at her second marriage, but you can't be sure that she hadn't first married another McMullen. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain > Ive just received a cert showing Sarah McMullen a 41 year old widows > marriage. Her dad is named as Henry McMullen. > This was in 1843 and she was Irish. > Do you think Sarah used - and also signed- her maiden name or had she > maybe > been a McMullen who married a McMullen. > The first marriage will more than likely have been somewhere in Ireland so > i > cant go down that route.

Normally if a man was a widower then the subsequent marriage certificate should state that he was a Widower not a bachelor. As far as I am aware if the father of one of the parties to a marraige was deceased then that should be shown along with the fathers name, in the father's name column not occupation column. But it doesn't always do so because sometimes, it would seem, the incumbent didn't ask whether both father's were living or not, so it would not necessarily be written on the certificate. The father's occupation should appear in it's proper column whether the father was alive or deceased. You say the bride's father never appears in any of the census after her birth, perhaps he was a mariner and was at sea for each census. From 1861 men at sea or in British or foreign ports were included in the census and the online version of the 1861 at Ancestry includes the ships at sea returns. With the 1871, 81, 91 and 1901 census it sometimes helps, if you are looking for a mariner at sea, if you put in the persons details but leave the abode boxes blank and add a Keyword of just the word Vessels, you can sometimes turn up a man on board a ship in this way. But if the bride's father was not a mariner then I can't explain why he was not in the census, unless he is there with his name mis-transcribed or something. Could he have been at work down a coal mine instead of at home in bed at midnight on census night? Perhaps you are putting a place name for where you think he should have been in the census, try leaving out that place name and only perhaps put in the county name and see what happens. It could also be that you have the wrong certificate altogether for the pair you are intersted in. You don't give any names so it is difficult to know if you are speaking about common names or not. Regards Jenny DeAngelis. Spain. I have 2 questions concerning an 1874 marriage certificate I just received and I hope someone may be able to help me. First, the groom is listed as a bachelor and I am almost certain that he was married in 1869 to someone else, had a child and then the wife died. Would it be unusual to be listed as a bachelor if he was a widower? Secondly, if the father of the bride were deceased, would it say "deceased" under father's profession, or would it list his occupation when he was living? I am almost positve her father died soon after she was born as he did not appear in any subsequent censuses. Would different parishes/ministers do things differently or were there strict guide lines? Any insight to these questions would be greatly appreciated. Kelly in Canada

I have recently updated my website with a number of will etc transcripts from County Durham. Although these mainly focus on the names Porritt & Prissick, all the personal names mentioned are indexed, and may be of use to someone... follow the probate transcripts link from http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/dhking/index.html Dave

Hi Jeffrey, > I've got a relative called Minnie Odell Smith who according to the 1881 Census was born in "America BS" around 1870/71. > Am I correct in assuming that this means that although she was born in America, she was also a British Subject?? Yes. It is a common abbreviation for British Subject. In this particular case the 1881 census image with Minnie Ordell Smith in Tudhoe, Durham actually says British subject and this must have been abbreviated for the census index. > Also, can anyone assist by telling me where I might get details of the birth?? Hopefully one of the list members from the US will be able to help with this part of your query. However, it might be a good idea to check later census years (1891 & 1901) to see if they give any more information about where in America she was born - you might be lucky. I can also recall an instance where in one census year someone was said to be born in "America" and then it subsequently transpired that he was born in Canada. Did Minnie Ordell Smith marry? Do you have her father's name from the marriage certificate? This might also help. Any information about her husband and children (if any) would also assist with a English census search in 1891 and 1901, assuming that she remained in England. Good luck, Ingrid

Hi Bette My earliest Hetherington is Joseph, born c1817 Abbeyholm, Cumbria. He married Julia Martha HUNTIGTON in 1838 at Cockermouth, Cumbria They had Jane 1844 Bridekirk Cumbria Thomas 1846 Newcastle-u-Tyne Euphemia 1847 Ogle - died 1853 Newcastle Julia 1850 West Chevington William 1855 Benwell Mary 1860 Longbenton Thomas married Sarah TAYLOR in 1874 and they lived in the West Chevington/Widrington area for the rest of their lives. They had 7 or 8 children, the 4th one being my wife's grandmother. Cheers Steve -- Researching Cairns, Dodsworth, Douglas, Hetherington, Hume, Pringle, Taylor, Wilson, Wintrip in Northumberland UK Cockburn, Dobson, Forster, Headlam, Hogg, Mackay, Maggs, Pringle, Tate in County Durham UK Hetherington, Huntington in Cumbria UK (pre 1846) Forster in North Yorkshire UK Barnard, Binks, Dowsett, Duncombe, Fairhead, Kemp, Ovel, Rudkin, Sibley, Smith, Spurgeon, Wendon in Essex UK Bunt(Bunts; Bunce) in Devon UK Caddy, Gluyas in Cornwall UK Cottle, Frances, Maggs, Plummer, Weaver in Somerset UK Corfield, Lees, Taylor in Willenhall, Staffordshire UK Bette McIntosh wrote: > Steve, > > If I may ask could you to please elaborate on your search for the > HETHERINGTON surname... the when (dates) & where (locations). I have a > research interest in this particular surname as it relates to Whitfield, > Redheugh and Allendale, NBL ca. 1700s. Specifically one John > HETHERINGTON and daughter Elizabeth. Elizabeth married a William > BURDESS in Allendale, NBL 19 July 1788. > > Bette > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" <steveshistory2@yahoo.co.uk> > To: <DUR-NBL@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:46 PM > Subject: [DUR-NBL] Off topic. I'm back.> >> -- >> Researching >> Cairns, Dodsworth, Douglas, Hetherington, Hume, Pringle, Taylor, >> Wilson, Wintrip in Northumberland UK >> Cockburn, Dobson, Forster, Headlam, Hogg, Mackay, Maggs, Pringle, Tate >> in County Durham UK >> Hetherington, Huntington in Cumbria UK (pre 1846) >> Forster in North Yorkshire UK >> Barnard, Binks, Dowsett, Duncombe, Fairhead, Kemp, Ovel, Rudkin, >> Sibley, Smith, Spurgeon, Wendon in Essex UK >> Bunt(Bunts; Bunce) in Devon UK >> Caddy, Gluyas in Cornwall UK >> Cottle, Frances, Maggs, Plummer, Weaver in Somerset UK >> Corfield, Lees, Taylor in Willenhall, Staffordshire UK

Many thanks to all who answered my query regarding marriage certificates and bachelors/deceased fathers. Kelly Paquette

Hi Jeffrey, since your last name is Wheatley I take it you know Minnie Smith married William Wheatley in 1888 Vol 10a pg 515. Perhaps that mentions her parents. On the 1881 census as you mentioned Minnie was shown as a 10 year niece of Henry Estell and his wife Elizabeth. I found Henry now a widower on the 1901 census with William and Minnie. I also found Henry & Elizabeth on 1861, have not found them yet on the 1851 but found Henry son of Jacob and Jemima Estell in the 1841. I found Henry and Elizabeth Estell in the 1870 United States Federal Census in North Ward St Clair Schuylkill Pennsylvania Henry Estell 39 M W Coal Miner England Elizabeth Estell 34 F W Keeping House England Maggie Williams 16 F W Dom Servant Pa so perhaps Minnie was born in Pennsylvania. Maybe finding the connection of Henry Estell as an uncle could be a clue. Hope this helps. Jackie Ingrid Clausen wrote: >Hi Jeffrey, > > > >>I've got a relative called Minnie Odell Smith who according to the 1881 >> >> >Census was born in "America BS" around 1870/71. > > > >>Am I correct in assuming that this means that although she was born in >> >> >America, she was also a British Subject?? > >Yes. It is a common abbreviation for British Subject. In this particular >case the 1881 census image with Minnie Ordell Smith in Tudhoe, Durham >actually says British subject and this must have been abbreviated for the >census index. > > > >>Also, can anyone assist by telling me where I might get details of the >> >> >birth?? > >Hopefully one of the list members from the US will be able to help with this >part of your query. However, it might be a good idea to check later census >years (1891 & 1901) to see if they give any more information about where in >America she was born - you might be lucky. I can also recall an instance >where in one census year someone was said to be born in "America" and then >it subsequently transpired that he was born in Canada. > >Did Minnie Ordell Smith marry? Do you have her father's name from the >marriage certificate? This might also help. Any information about her >husband and children (if any) would also assist with a English census search >in 1891 and 1901, assuming that she remained in England. > >Good luck, > >Ingrid > > > ==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== >To Post a message to this list send it to, >DUR-NBL-L@rootsweb.com > >==== DUR-NBL Mailing List ==== >List Web Page >http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/durhamgenealogy/index.phtml > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DUR-NBL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

It's quite a while since I posted my interests but I always monitor the list and enjoy learning from other listers. I'm researching :- HENSON South Shields and area ; some came from Scotland in 1870 and West Sussex SEALES with var. sp. in South Shields , Wallsend and originally from Norfolk in 1800s DIXON - Newcastle from 17oos , South Shields . Gateshead, Tynemouth and several mining towns married into Skipsey, Brown, Robson, Wilson & Johnson of Newbottle ( such uncommon names :-) WILSON from N. Yorks.1850s to Houghton le spring , South Shields MITCHELL from London 1830s to N. & S. Shields married into Ellis family and Flanighan. Cheers, Dorothy on Vancouver Island