I checked Hartlepool North Cemetery MIs but there is no James Thomas burial recorded. There is a reference in November 1901 to Mary Ann Thomas wife of James - could this be her? Ruth in Hambledon, Hampshire "The Cradle of Cricket" -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mary Hart Sent: 26 April 2009 05:35 To: [email protected] Subject: [DUR-NBL] Death Indexes Hartlepool I have been searching for James THOMAS' death, my GGgrandfather 1891-1901. He was on the 1891 census and in 1901 his wife is listed as a widow.

Progressive migration from Ireland - Cumberland - NBL seems a reasonable hypothesis in this case, if there are significant numbers of Whinneys in Cumberland. Ag labs, shepherds and hinds were a mobile lot. Otherwise there are a number of reasons I have encountered for the Irish getting to NBL that early. Some as seamen (probably not a good explanation for Elsdon), some as soldiers (and the 1600s were turbulent times), some as seasonal agricultural labourers returning to Ireland in between hirings, and then there have been Irish travellers/ tinkers for a long time also. I have found instances of the latter in NBL rural parish burial records from the late 1600s. If it is just an individual and perhaps their family, then perhaps they came as servants to a wealthy NBL person or family who had land or other interests in Ireland. In other parts of NBL I might wonder if they had been imported as cheap labour for the early coal mining industry. It is an intriguing puzzle and I hope you find the answer. Good luck, Ingrid On 25/04/2009, at 7:59 PM, gen listlass wrote: > > But....... how did an Irish? family get to Elsdon in the late > 1600's. If they were Irish? Suppose anything is possible but is it > likely? Elsdon isnt exacty the centre of the universe now but I > think it was more important in the past. > > > > There seem to be many Whinneys in Cumberland, maybe they were strays > from there and previously from Ireland?

Hi Paddy There are parts of the census missing completely, lost or damaged and will never be found and are gone for good But just because you can't find it, does not mean its not there :-) Why not post the details you know and let others have a look for you All suppliers use the same pages because there is only one set , one supplier or other might miss one or more pages or miss indexed some but as you seem to have tried several I suspect they are missing completely or they are under something you don't expect So I suggest you post the details you know and lets have a go If you do, please give names, addresses etc as much as possible Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > The structure of the 1861 Census (and most others) is by County, then > Civil Parish, then Sub Registration District and finally Enumeration > District, which describes the boundaries and streets therein. But if the > image of a street is missing from one search engine, where best can I find > the missing schedules? I have searched Ancestry, British Origins and Find > My Past and all seem to be using the images provided by National Archives. > Does anyone know of a different provider for the 1861 Census? What's the > best way of getting the fault rectified? Go to the source at National > Archives? > > Paddy Buckley

From: "Paddy Buckley" <[email protected]> > The structure of the 1861 Census (and most others) is by County, then > Civil Parish, then Sub Registration District and finally Enumeration > District, which describes the boundaries and streets therein. But if > the image of a street is missing from one search engine, where best > can I find the missing schedules? I have searched Ancestry, British > Origins and Find My Past and all seem to be using the images provided > by National Archives. Does anyone know of a different provider for > the 1861 Census? What's the best way of getting the fault rectified? > Go to the source at National Archives?> I think you are suffering from a misunderstanding, Paddy. If some schedules and images are missing, then the likelihood is that they are not just missing from that particular provider but they have disappeared for good and do not exist! It is well known that some areas have been lost and the 1861 census is a particular problem. If you look at Findmypast you will see that there is a link immmediately beneath the basic search box that says: "Read our comprehensive guide to the census including known issues with the 1861 census". Click on this and you are taken to another page which lists all known missing enumeration books and pieces from the various censuses. Scroll down the page to see 1861. You will just have to accept the fact that these pages are missing FOREVER from The National Archives and unless by some miracel they turn up, then they are gone and that is that. And no, there is no other provider other than TNA. What made you think there is? -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

The structure of the 1861 Census (and most others) is by County, then Civil Parish, then Sub Registration District and finally Enumeration District, which describes the boundaries and streets therein. But if the image of a street is missing from one search engine, where best can I find the missing schedules? I have searched Ancestry, British Origins and Find My Past and all seem to be using the images provided by National Archives. Does anyone know of a different provider for the 1861 Census? What's the best way of getting the fault rectified? Go to the source at National Archives? Paddy Buckley

Thank you Roy for your input. I was looking at the late 1600's and early 1700's in the north of England. _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/

Thank you Ingrid for your input. I had wondered about soldiers as there was probably quite a lot of activity in that Elsdon area in the mid 1600's to early 1700's! I have spent all day today at the Northumberland Archives and I found a Whinney in Elsdon called Guilbert Bewhing who was on the 4 & 20 in 1702 but he could only make his mark. Their name is spelt Bywhinney. Bewhinney/Whinney/Whiney..........etc etc. These Whinneys were millers around Elsdon. Plodding along, hoping for more but evidence is getting thin on the ground in the 1680's. Gen in NBL > Otherwise there are a number of reasons I have encountered for the > Irish getting to NBL that early. Some as seamen (probably not a > good explanation for Elsdon), some as soldiers (and the 1600s were > turbulent times), some as seasonal agricultural labourers returning to > Ireland in between hirings, and then there have been Irish travellers/ > tinkers for a long time also. I have found instances of the latter > in NBL rural parish burial records from the late 1600s. If it is > just an individual and perhaps their family, then perhaps they came as > servants to a wealthy NBL person or family who had land or other > interests in Ireland. _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/

From: gen listlass <[email protected]> > There seem to be many Whinneys in Cumberland, maybe they were strays > from there and previously from Ireland? > I am unsure as to what period you are talking about, but I can tell you that in the 1881 census there most certainly were not many Whinneys in Cumberland (and I find the 1881 to be a fairly reliable guide to surname distributions in other periods of history generally). Using Surname Atlas (the program that draws distribution maps from the 1881 data), I first of all entered the name WHINNEY by itself. There were only 86 entries in total throughout the country and, of these, the largest number - 32 - were in Middlesex. Then followed Co Durham with 15, Suffolk with 9, and Cumberland was fourth with only seven people of the name. Switching to numbers by Poor Law Unions (registration and enumeration districts) all of the Cumberland entries were in just one place, Wigton, whilst the largest number overall, 23, were in St Pancras, London. Of course, you would have to examine the 1881 census CDs place by place to discover how many of them in other places were actually born in Cumberland, for it is certainly possible some of them might have been. I then included variants of WHINNEY - WHINEY, WHINNY, WINEY, WINNEY, WINNOW and WINNY. This brought the total up to 424, with still only 11 entries for Cumberland, Suffolk this time going to the top of the table with 76. In terms of Poor Law Unions, there were 10 in Wigton and just 1 in Whitehaven. On the evidence of Surname Atlas, the surname does not appear to be predominantly a Cumberland name in any way. -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

> Ever thought that you might not be able to find anything on the web about > the name "Bewhinney" because it didn't really exist? >Pat Had crossed my mind :-) But....... how did an Irish? family get to Elsdon in the late 1600's. If they were Irish? Suppose anything is possible but is it likely? Elsdon isnt exacty the centre of the universe now but I think it was more important in the past. There seem to be many Whinneys in Cumberland, maybe they were strays from there and previously from Ireland? Gen in NBL _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/

Hello listers, I am looking for a marriage between Robert WILSON and Jane ??????, sometime around 1822, and her death prior to 1830. Robert WILSON married Ann HUTTON in Bishopwearmouth, Durham on 13 Mar 1830. The 1841 Census has at Shincliffe Colliery village the following family: Robert WILSON, 40, coal Miner Ann WILSON, 30 William WILSON, 15, Coal Miner Robert WILSON, 15, coal Miner Jane WILSON, 10 Joseph WILSON, 9 Thomas WILSON, 7 Ann WILSON, 4 Luke WILSON, 3. By 1851, Ann is widowed, and the oldest boy at home is Joseph. I know ages were rounded in the 1841 but it's just dawned on me that the ages of the two oldest boys made it probable that Ann was not their mother, or that they were born some years before the marriage. Ann was probably about 27 years old, judging by ages in later census, and she was christened in 1804. Investigation through Durham Records Online, gave the following: > 1822 William Wilson, son of Robert Wilson & Jane, Houghton-le-Spring > 19 Feb 1826 Robert Wilson, of Hetton, son of Robert Wilson & Jane, > Houghton-le-Spring. And there is a patron submission on the IGI for the marriage of Robert WILSON and Jane ARMSTRONG, April 2, 1825. However, even this is after the birth of William. I know that WILSON is not exactly an uncommon name, so I'll be grateful for any help that anyone can give. Thank you Judy Thomas

HI Nivard I had wondered if there had been a still born twin and so only one is registered. But if that was the case maybe the time should not have been put on the certificate of the surviving twin. regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<> I agree with you Jenny > It seems some registrars were confused as to the rules on times on > certificates in the early years > Some registrars seem to have continued the practice for quite a time but > it seems to have ceased by 1850 > The only obvious way is to check several certificates around the one in > question, not a very practical thing to do, a phone call to the local > registrar might get some help though > Also as still births were not recorded until 1927, it begs the question if > one of twins was stillborn (so unregistered) would the other surviving > twin have the time noted on the birth registration?<<

Hi Jenny I think its one of those situations where there is no perfect one size fits all answer The theory is that the time should only be noted on a twin birth but its well reported that some Registrars simply misunderstood and put it on all registrations in the earlier years, that plus the question I mentioned over still births means you can only check as far as you can Unfortunately some people will believe what they want to, if they want to believe there were twins in the family nothing will persuade them otherwise The same goes with various other things, people will simply not accept the obvious sometimes no matter what they are told (I don't mean in this particular case by the way :-) Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > HI Nivard > > I had wondered if there had been a still born twin and so only one is > registered. But if that was the case maybe the time should not have been > put on the certificate of the surviving twin. > > regards > Jenny DeAngelis > Spain.

Thank you to those kind folks who responded. Grateful for your assistance with this one. Regards, Marina New Zealand

Time of birth being recorded on the birth registration is not always exclusive to twins. I have a birth in 1841 where the time of birth is given on the certificate. I have searched the GRO index thoroughly for a second birth in the same year, quarter, reg. district and surname there isn't one at all. Maybe the case of an over efficient registrar, perhaps he was new to the job and thought he ought to record every detail just in case. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<> Just a note on this subject of twins which no one has mentioned yet. If they > were twins it is almost certain that on both birth certificates there will > be the time of birth recorded and this only normally appears in the case > of twins.>>

I agree with you Jenny It seems some registrars were confused as to the rules on times on certificates in the early years Some registrars seem to have continued the practice for quite a time but it seems to have ceased by 1850 The only obvious way is to check several certificates around the one in question, not a very practical thing to do, a phone call to the local registrar might get some help though Also as still births were not recorded until 1927, it begs the question if one of twins was stillborn (so unregistered) would the other surviving twin have the time noted on the birth registration? Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > Time of birth being recorded on the birth registration is not always > exclusive to twins. I have a birth in 1841 where the time of birth is > given > on the certificate. I have searched the GRO index thoroughly for a second > birth in the same year, quarter, reg. district and surname there isn't one > at all. Maybe the case of an over efficient registrar, perhaps he was new > to the job and thought he ought to record every detail just in case. > > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis > Spain. > > <<> Just a note on this subject of twins which no one has mentioned yet. > If > they >> were twins it is almost certain that on both birth certificates there >> will >> be the time of birth recorded and this only normally appears in the case >> of twins.>>

Hi Gen Ever thought that you might not be able to find anything on the web about the name "Bewhinney" because it didn't really exist? If the Parish Clerk didn't know these people, he would just spell their name the way it sounded, and Mewhinney sounds very much like Bewhinney if you say it few times! Cheers Pat =================================== Mrs Pat Pierpoint Hon. Secretary and Genealogy Officer Clan Johnston/Johnstone Association (U.K.) =================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of gen listlass > Sent: 24 April 2009 10:42 > To: [email protected]; DUR-NBL list > Subject: Re: [DUR-NBL] Whinney surname > > > Hi Roy > > > > Been there, done that:-) > > > > Didn't make myself clear, I wondered at the change of name > from Bewhinney to Whinney. It's quite clear in the parish > registers. The two surnames seemed to co-exist for a while > then the Be... prefix disappeared totally. Cannot find > anything on the web about a Bewhinney surname, only > Mewhinneys from Ireland. > > > > Gen in NBL > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 5045 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Hi Roy Been there, done that:-) Didn't make myself clear, I wondered at the change of name from Bewhinney to Whinney. It's quite clear in the parish registers. The two surnames seemed to co-exist for a while then the Be... prefix disappeared totally. Cannot find anything on the web about a Bewhinney surname, only Mewhinneys from Ireland. Gen in NBL _________________________________________________________________ Beyond Hotmail — see what else you can do with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/

From: "Terry O'Connor" <[email protected]> > Just a note on this subject of twins which no one has mentioned yet. > If they were twins it is almost certain that on both birth > certificates there will be the time of birth recorded and this only > normally appears in the case of twins. > That is normally true in England but certainly not in Scotland, where the time of birth is recorded on every certificate. I have also, just once, come across a case in England of a registrar in Victorian times whose personal foible was to record the time of birth on EVERY certificate. He was obviously a conscientious man who exceeded his duties - but, then, it was in Yorkshire! -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: gen listlass <[email protected]> > I am chasing my ancestors into the 17th century in the Elsdon area > (millers at Whiskershiel Mill) > They appear in the 18th century as Whinney and variants BUT as I go > further back in time they become Bewhinney and variants. > > Has anyone any thoughts on these surnames? > Not quite clear what you mean by "any thoughts" but if you are wanting to know what the name and its variants derives from, then why don't you pop into your local library and look at one of the several reference books on the subject? A popular and well-known one is "A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Reaney and Wilson and another is the Oxford Dictionary of Surnames by Hanks and Hodges. Alternatively, there are numerous websites on the Internet and if you simply enter "meaning of surname Whinney" into Google you will find them. There is also a one-name study of the name, which can be found at the Guild of One-Name Studies' website, www.one-name.org. You can then contact the person who runs it by going to the online Register. The origin of the name is given there. I could tell you what the name means but I am a great believer in people doing their own research! I am, however, happy to tell you HOW to find out what you want to know. -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi All I am chasing my ancestors into the 17th century in the Elsdon area (millers at Whiskershiel Mill) They appear in the 18th century as Whinney and variants BUT as I go further back in time they become Bewhinney and variants. Has anyone any thoughts on these surnames? Gen in NBL _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/