Hi James, Many thanks for your reply. It has already been explained to me off list and as a result of that explanation I was then reading it as "MvijC" although the "v" looked more like an "a". But your explanation has an extra twist to it with the "jaj". I have now found a web site which explains this amongst other things. http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmDat.asp The example which was giving me problems seems to be a slight variation on your example and the example in the website but I now have the general idea. I still think it is very weird! Thanks again, Christine -----Original Message----- From: James Irvine Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Interpreting year in will What you are reading as MayC is the common representation in old manuscripts jmvijc, or jaj vjct, for the 18th century. It is a form of roman numerals: jaj was a representation of i m. James Irvine Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 02:13:13 +0100 From: "Christine Benson" <[email protected]> Subject: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Interpreting year in will To: "Dumfries&Galloway Mailing List" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi All, I have a will in which the year 1796 (I think) is consistently written MayC and Ninety Six with an umlaut (two dots) over the "y" as far as I can read and represent it. I have thought the "C" might be for "hundred" and/or the "M" could be "thousand" but that would give "MDCC" and it is not that. Can anyone suggest what it should read? Any suggestions gratefully received. Christine ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Langholm poet Hugh MacDiarmid wrote the following poem about Crowdieknowe. Rene CROWDIEKNOWE Oh to be at Crowdieknowe When the last trump blaws. An see the deid come lowpin owre The auld grey wa's. Muckle men wi' tousled beards I grat as a bairn 'll scramble frae the croodit clay Wi' feck o' swearin'. An' glower at God an' a' his gang 0' angels i' the lift -Thae trashy bleezin' French-like folk Wha gar'd them shift! Fain the weemun-folk'll seek To mak' them haud their row -Fegs, God's no blate gin he stirs up The men o' Crowdieknowe ! ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Digest, Vol 7, Issue 57 | HELLO | MY FAMILY LIVED AT CROWDIEKNOWE AND THEN MINSCA--LAST NAME WAS | "BELL" I BELEVE LATER AT ONE TIME THE GRAHMS OWNED IT. | | BRENDA | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What you are reading as MayC is the common representation in old manuscripts jmvijc, or jaj vjct, for the 18th century. It is a form of roman numerals: jaj was a representation of i m. James Irvine Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 02:13:13 +0100 From: "Christine Benson" <[email protected]> Subject: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Interpreting year in will To: "Dumfries&Galloway Mailing List" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi All, I have a will in which the year 1796 (I think) is consistently written MayC and Ninety Six with an umlaut (two dots) over the "y" as far as I can read and represent it. I have thought the "C" might be for "hundred" and/or the "M" could be "thousand" but that would give "MDCC" and it is not that. Can anyone suggest what it should read? Any suggestions gratefully received. Christine

HELLO MY FAMILY LIVED AT CROWDIEKNOWE AND THEN MINSCA--LAST NAME WAS "BELL" I BELEVE LATER AT ONE TIME THE GRAHMS OWNED IT. BRENDA

Thanks Ian, now I know what it is I can read it as that. And I have located it on a map. Thanks again, Christine -----Original Message----- From: Imchad Ancestry Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 4:43 PM To: 'Christine Benson' Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Chowdicknowe ??? Hi Christine I think this is CROWDIEKNOWE, a farm (and a hill) about midway between Lockerbie and Langholm. Best wishes Ian A McClumpha Researching Scottish Family History; please look at our website> www.imchad.freeola.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christine Benson Sent: 13 May 2012 16:13 To: Dumfries&Galloway Mailing List Subject: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Chowdicknowe ??? Hi All, I am looking for the place of Chowdicknowe in Dumfriesshire. The "Ch" in particular is very difficult to make out - the rest of it appears to be as written. It was the address of John Thomson in 1793. Any help gratefully received, Christine

Hi Christine I think this is CROWDIEKNOWE, a farm (and a hill) about midway between Lockerbie and Langholm. Best wishes Ian A McClumpha Researching Scottish Family History; please look at our website> www.imchad.freeola.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christine Benson Sent: 13 May 2012 16:13 To: Dumfries&Galloway Mailing List Subject: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Chowdicknowe ??? Hi All, I am looking for the place of Chowdicknowe in Dumfriesshire. The "Ch" in particular is very difficult to make out - the rest of it appears to be as written. It was the address of John Thomson in 1793. Any help gratefully received, Christine ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All, I am looking for the place of Chowdicknowe in Dumfriesshire. The "Ch" in particular is very difficult to make out - the rest of it appears to be as written. It was the address of John Thomson in 1793. Any help gratefully received, Christine

Can anyone point me to more information on the drowning of three men from Lochmaben who drowned in the River Annan on 12 September 1802. Two were brothers Robert and John Bell sons of Robert Bell and his wife Janet Boyes in Blackrigghouse, Lochmaben Muir, and the third was a young man from a neighbouring farmstead. Iain Crosbie

Hi All, I have a will in which the year 1796 (I think) is consistently written MayC and Ninety Six with an umlaut (two dots) over the "y" as far as I can read and represent it. I have thought the "C" might be for "hundred" and/or the "M" could be "thousand" but that would give "MDCC" and it is not that. Can anyone suggest what it should read? Any suggestions gratefully received. Christine

Hi All, I have burials at Gretna mentioning the places Hagtoun and Loanwath. I have found Loanwath Road in Gretna but presumably it once went to or past a place called Loanwath. I have no idea whether these places are as small as house/farm names or bigger. Can anyone enlighten me. Any help gratefully received. Christine

Thank you Irene. Christine Someone recently posted the URL for the British newspaper archives << www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk >> and searching these archives has provided new information and also some amusement. Elizabeth Thorrat was enumerated with her father and her children in 1871, so her husband must have died. But she had two additional children whose father was Andrew Bell or Andrew Bell Cunningham. I found the story in the newspaper Archives and the mystery was solved: "Case of Bigamy -- At the Glasgow Circuit Court, on Monday, a man named Andrew Bell was charged with having, on 14th October, in the house occupied by the Rev. Andrew Lepier, entered into a matrimonial connection with Elizabeth Thorrat or Kirkcaldy, widow, residing in Cumberland Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow, while his wife, whom he married in Falkirk on 26th March, 1869, was still alive. He pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to 15 months' imprisonment." And another one (Index only) concerning my great-great-grandmother, Mary Mitchelson nee Thorat: Dumfries and Galloway Standard Wed 16 May 1855 Dumfriesshire, Scotland SHERIFF'S CRIMINAL COURT, DUMFRIES “ ......Widow Mitchelson's house in Dumfries, and observing that her watch did not keep time, he urged her to let him have it, saying he would repair and return it in the course of a week. Instead of doing so, Smith pawned it for 3s 6d. He was convicted and ... ?" There was another one in the Glasgow Herald where my great-grandfather was thrown out of a cart by a run-away horse. All most enlightening. There is some real entertainment to be found in these old newspapers! Irene (Canada) On 28-Apr-12, at 7:39 PM, David and Chris wrote: > >> Hi, Irene and Sandy and List members, > I read with interest all information on John Thurot / Agnes Locke. > I have been pieceing together all relevant info on the above and their > daughter Jane Thurot married Adam Lockerbie(Lockerby) . They are my > husbands 5X grandparents and 4X grandparents. > Irene sent me some information last year which was wonderful but still > hoping for more. > Can you also tell what a M.I. is?? > M.I. = monumental inscription

> Hi, Irene and Sandy and List members, I read with interest all information on John Thurot / Agnes Locke. I have been pieceing together all relevant info on the above and their daughter Jane Thurot married Adam Lockerbie(Lockerby) . They are my husbands 5X grandparents and 4X grandparents. Irene sent me some information last year which was wonderful but still hoping for more. Can you also tell what a M.I. is?? Kind regards Christine > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Someone recently posted the URL for the British newspaper archives << www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk >> and searching these archives has provided new information and also some amusement. Elizabeth Thorrat was enumerated with her father and her children in 1871, so her husband must have died. But she had two additional children whose father was Andrew Bell or Andrew Bell Cunningham. I found the story in the newspaper Archives and the mystery was solved: "Case of Bigamy -- At the Glasgow Circuit Court, on Monday, a man named Andrew Bell was charged with having, on 14th October, in the house occupied by the Rev. Andrew Lepier, entered into a matrimonial connection with Elizabeth Thorrat or Kirkcaldy, widow, residing in Cumberland Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow, while his wife, whom he married in Falkirk on 26th March, 1869, was still alive. He pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to 15 months' imprisonment." And another one (Index only) concerning my great-great-grandmother, Mary Mitchelson nee Thorat: Dumfries and Galloway Standard Wed 16 May 1855 Dumfriesshire, Scotland SHERIFF'S CRIMINAL COURT, DUMFRIES “ ......Widow Mitchelson's house in Dumfries, and observing that her watch did not keep time, he urged her to let him have it, saying he would repair and return it in the course of a week. Instead of doing so, Smith pawned it for 3s 6d. He was convicted and ... ?" There was another one in the Glasgow Herald where my great-grandfather was thrown out of a cart by a run-away horse. All most enlightening. There is some real entertainment to be found in these old newspapers! Irene (Canada) On 28-Apr-12, at 7:39 PM, David and Chris wrote: > >> Hi, Irene and Sandy and List members, > I read with interest all information on John Thurot / Agnes Locke. > I have been pieceing together all relevant info on the above and > their daughter Jane Thurot married Adam Lockerbie(Lockerby) . They > are my husbands 5X grandparents and 4X grandparents. > Irene sent me some information last year which was wonderful but > still hoping for more. > Can you also tell what a M.I. is?? > M.I. = monumental inscription

Something got screwed up and the URL I sent got corrupted: It should have read -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Thurot

Hi Irene, you wrote: <<Transcribers almost always have trouble with the surname Thurot or Thorat, which is in my ancestral line.   There are only three references in the DGFHS MIs database to the Thurot family name and its derivations. Two are fairly bland and you might want to ignore them as possibles among your ancestors. But there is one with a more 'heroic' pedigree ! You might want to claim descent from a French pirate who terrorised English merchant shipping and coastal towns in the 1700s.  He was finally defeated and killed in sea battle off the Solway Coast. He is buried in Glasserton Parish, Wigtownshire.   St Mary's Graveyard Dumfries In Affectionate Remembrance of William CARRICK, who died 5th April 1881 aged 70 years "For ever with the Lord" Also Margaret THORIT, relict of the above, died March 16th 1890 aged 85 years And Janet BLACKLOCK his mother, who died 1853 aged 60 years   Closeburn Graveyard Dumfriesshire In Memory of George THURRAT, who died at Park, Closeburn, 10th June 1878 aged 69 years Also his wife, Sarah SMITH, who died at Kelhead, Cummertrees, 21st Jan 1904 aged 95 years Also Henrietta LOVE, wife of George THURRAT, and daughter-in-law of the above, who died at Cummertrees 9th May 1933 aged 80 years Also the above George THURRAT, who died at Cummertrees 6th March 1935 aged 80 years Erected by their son, George   Old Kirkmaiden graveyard near Port William (Glasserton Parish) Brass Plaque on ruined church wall In Memory of Francois THUROT A gallant French Naval Officer killed in action off the Isle of Man February 28 1760 His body was washed ashore and was buried in this churchyard He introduced the Ancient Order of Coldin to Sweden [this refers to a secret Masonic Order] [Historical Note - not recorded on plaque] Captain Thurot was killed in battle when he led a small squadron of French ships against a much larger group of British warships. The battle began in Belfast Lough and ended off the Isle of Man with the sinking of his ship. His bravery in attacking a much larger force was much admired, and Maxwell of Monreith buried him inside his family chancel in the old graveyard above monreith Bay See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Thurotfor a very detailed account.

Hi, Sandy: Nice to hear from you again, after all these years! The M.I. you sent for William Carrick was new to me, although I do have death certificates for him and his wife. My research on this line has been ongoing for some 15 years, and another Thorrat researcher did a lot of research in the 1970's. A few of my fellow researchers during those years have tried to claim descent from Francois Thurot, but in fact there is not one shred of evidence, or at least none that I have seen! In the year 2000, a Thorrat researcher in Scotland sent me a copy of the book written about the life of Captain Francois Thurot (ISBN 0-907715-23-0), and for several years I corresponded with Daniele Calder in France, who wrote to me and others on behalf of the known descendant of Francois Thurot, who doesn't speak English (his direct ancestor was Thurot's daughter who was given a pension by the French government). Our Thurot ancestors may well have originated in France, but my own thinking is that they were in England for a few hundred years before making their way to Scotland. One M.I. which you missed is the one in Kirkbean Cemetery, where my great-great-grandparents are buried: It reads, "In memory of John Thorat who died at Gateside 12th Jany. 1833 aged 77 years; also Agnes Lock his spouse who died 29th May 1833 aged 74 years." Thanks very much for your interest, Sandy. Irene Mitchell (Canada) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Pittendreigh" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Thorat, Lindsay Hi Irene, you wrote: <<Transcribers almost always have trouble with the surname Thurot or Thorat, which is in my ancestral line. You might want to claim descent from a French pirate who terrorised English merchant shipping and coastal towns in the 1700s. He was finally defeated and killed in sea battle off the Solway Coast. He is buried in Glasserton Parish, Wigtownshire.

Hi Irene I think you'll find her under THURIT. Regards Don Grant SCOON One Name Study (GoONS #5642) In a message dated 27/04/2012 23:26:57 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Can anyone help? Transcribers almost always have trouble with the surname Thurot or Thorat, which is in my ancestral line. The particular Mary Ann Thurot or Thorat of this enquiry was born in Kirkbean parish, but lived most of her life in Dalbeattie. She died at 166, High Street, Dalbeattie, on 24 January 1885, apparently a pauper and single. Her age changes widely in every Census record! Single or not, she appears to have had at least two children, the second of whom was a daughter named Mary Ann Lindsay, who appears with her in several Census records. This daughter, Mary Ann Lindsay, is shown in the I.G.I. to have given birth (illegitimately) to Robert Calvert or Lindsay in 1854, followed by 6 sons after 1855, all with the surname Lindsay. Where I need help, is that the Ancestry version of the 1861 Census has made a poor job of transcribing the various surnames, and I've been trying to bring up this Census record on Scotlandspeople so that I can see for myself the actual image of the Census page. Trouble is, that Scotlandspeople does not recognise any of these surnames below, and I've tried various combinations but don't seem to be getting anywhere. Surely with all this information, I should be able to locate the page! The 1861 Source Citation: Parish: Dalbeattie; ED: 5; Page: 4; Line: 2; Roll: CSSCT1861_146. Mary Ann Thiret Age: 69 Est. Birth Year: abt 1792 : Head : F : b. Dalbeattie, Kirkcudbrightshire Registration No. 864 Reg. Dist. Dalbeattie Civil parish: Dalbeattie Town: Dalbeattie County: Kirkcudbrightshire Address: High Street Occupation: Formerly Dom (pauper) Servant ED: 5 Household schedule number: 25 Line: 2 Roll: CSSCT1861_146 Mary Ann Thiret 69 [Surname may be Thurot or Thorat -- or even Thurret] Mary Ann Geadsay 23 daur c 1838 Dalbeattie [surname Lindsay - her age is 28 not 23] John Geadsay 9 grandson c 1852 Dalbeattie [Lindsay? - no birth record] Robert Calcut 7 grandson c 1854, Dalbeattie [There is a birth record for Robert Calvert or Lindsay, 1854] James Ohara 2 grandson c 1859, Dalbeattie [IGI shows James Lindsay b. 1859] Any assistance would be really appreciated. Thanks, Irene ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks a lot, Don. I've now downloaded the Census from Scotlandspeople. Irene ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY] Thorat, Lindsay Hi Irene I think you'll find her under THURIT. Regards Don Grant

Can anyone help? Transcribers almost always have trouble with the surname Thurot or Thorat, which is in my ancestral line. The particular Mary Ann Thurot or Thorat of this enquiry was born in Kirkbean parish, but lived most of her life in Dalbeattie. She died at 166, High Street, Dalbeattie, on 24 January 1885, apparently a pauper and single. Her age changes widely in every Census record! Single or not, she appears to have had at least two children, the second of whom was a daughter named Mary Ann Lindsay, who appears with her in several Census records. This daughter, Mary Ann Lindsay, is shown in the I.G.I. to have given birth (illegitimately) to Robert Calvert or Lindsay in 1854, followed by 6 sons after 1855, all with the surname Lindsay. Where I need help, is that the Ancestry version of the 1861 Census has made a poor job of transcribing the various surnames, and I've been trying to bring up this Census record on Scotlandspeople so that I can see for myself the actual image of the Census page. Trouble is, that Scotlandspeople does not recognise any of these surnames below, and I've tried various combinations but don't seem to be getting anywhere. Surely with all this information, I should be able to locate the page! The 1861 Source Citation: Parish: Dalbeattie; ED: 5; Page: 4; Line: 2; Roll: CSSCT1861_146. Mary Ann Thiret Age: 69 Est. Birth Year: abt 1792 : Head : F : b. Dalbeattie, Kirkcudbrightshire Registration No. 864 Reg. Dist. Dalbeattie Civil parish: Dalbeattie Town: Dalbeattie County: Kirkcudbrightshire Address: High Street Occupation: Formerly Dom (pauper) Servant ED: 5 Household schedule number: 25 Line: 2 Roll: CSSCT1861_146 Mary Ann Thiret 69 [Surname may be Thurot or Thorat -- or even Thurret] Mary Ann Geadsay 23 daur c 1838 Dalbeattie [surname Lindsay - her age is 28 not 23] John Geadsay 9 grandson c 1852 Dalbeattie [Lindsay? - no birth record] Robert Calcut 7 grandson c 1854, Dalbeattie [There is a birth record for Robert Calvert or Lindsay, 1854] James Ohara 2 grandson c 1859, Dalbeattie [IGI shows James Lindsay b. 1859] Any assistance would be really appreciated. Thanks, Irene

Hi all, Researching Jardines from this area: My father was James Jardine son of William Harkness Jardine (1/2/1877) and Margaret McGuire (mothers maiden name was McElhinney) Married Glasgow 12/9/1908 William Harkness Jardine was son of Andrew Jeffrey Jardine and Elizabeth Harkness Thats where it gets cloudy Andrew Jardine b. 1836 was the son of James Jardine and Jane(t) Jeffrey (Jaffrey)? Elizabeth Harkness was the daughter of Robert Harkness and Janet Jardine (Canonbie) b. 15/1/1812 My father had three sisters and three (?) brothers. We are hoping to get a better history together before travelling to Scotland next year for a Jardine Clan Re-union.