Dear Folks: My ancestors..thank goodness...followed a very specific pattern of 1st son after father's father, second son after mother's father; first daughter after father's mother and second daughter after mother's mother. It's made research click. Any other children seemed to be named after the parents or uncles and aunts. Now, in my mother-in-laws family, they used the mother's maiden name (in most cases) as a second name for all the children. That was just after the first world war and I can't seem to find out if that was a long standing tradition in their family. I did find in my Norvals, one branch of the family did give one son the mother's maiden name as a second name and that was circa 1800. It's lots of fun..a makes life a whole lot easier if they were as "set in their ways" as my ancestors. Sue

As far as I know this naming pattern (using the mother's father's first name as the middle name for the mother's child, for boys), has been around for some time. While middle names are not normally recorded I have found them popping up now and then. My GGGrandfather's (Robert Black) was born in 1822 in Ramsay Township, Bathurst District, Upper Canada. He married in 1848 and had two sons. The second son was named after his father. However, only in his obituary seventy five years later is he listed as Robert "J." Black. The "J." I have determined stood for John - the first name of little Robert's mother's father - John McPhee. This Robert John Black had many sons himself, and one was named John Caldwell Black. "Caldwell" was the family name of his mother - Mary Caldwell. This pattern of naming a son with a middle name that matches his mother's father's name, seems to pop up in Irish families and Scottish families. Dean -----Original Message----- From: Sheena Jones [mailto:sheenafjones@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: August 1, 2004 6:00 PM To: Dean Black; DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns This pattern is new to me. Could you tell us which part of the world they lived in? Also which centuries it covered? Sheena ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Black <dcblack@sympatico.ca> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: RE: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > Hello, Has this (very interesting) thread of e-mails discussing naming > conventions yet addressed middle names? My research into my family tree has > uncovered a consistent habit of naming the first born son after his mother's > father - where the family middle name is concerned. For example, my father's > name Noel Ernest Black reflects his mother's (Marcelle Gauthier) father's > (Ernest Gauthier) name. Noel's father - Clayton Thomas Black - derives the > name Thomas from his mother's (Elizabeth Wren) father's (Thomas Wren) name. > Any perspectives listers might have on this aspect of naming patterns would > be most appreciated. I should add that this pattern is followed without fail > for seven generations until it breaks down owing to the early death of one > man and an early death of another's wife such that he remarries. Where > children lose a father very early on in life the naming pattern is lost, or > so it would seem. Thank you for any information others might be able to > provide. > > Dean > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Ritchie [mailto:iritchie1@iprimus.com.au] > Sent: August 1, 2004 7:24 AM > To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > > > Thankyou all for the feedback. It appears that my theory is at least > possible. I don't really have a possible first son's birth or death but was > just checking that it was a possiblility. I'm looking for parents for my > Walter Ritchie (b.circa 1796) and,with no obvious standout > possibilities,began to look at other scenarios. I found possible parents who > would fill the criteria as far as the other children of Walter & Martha were > concerned providing I made the assumption that a first son had been born and > then,conveniently,died. I know,it's the old long bow again and I've changed > the string more than once already but at least I'm still aiming at the same > target. > Incidentally how do illegitimate children figure in this naming scheme? > e.g.If Martha had a child before she married Walter,and to a different > father, is it still child number one? or only as far as Martha is concerned? > Sorry about that last query - I know I'm pushing my luck. > > Ian Ritchie > > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > ______________________________

[This message (sent over a week ago) has not yet appeared on the list] I also am interested in Laurie/Lawrie in and around Kirkcudbright during the period 1750-1850. In particular:- Archibald Lawrie (1768-1837) who married Anne McKitterick Adair in 1794. Their son George James Lawrie (1796-1878) married Laura Louise second daughter of Samuel Ludlow of Delhi. Their daughter Frances Wallace Lawrie (b. 7 September 1828) married Thomas Carlyle (1803-1855) son of William Carlyle and Margaret Heriot of Savannah, Georgia. (Margaret was the widow of William McMurdo of Jamaica). I have sent this information because of the current interests of members of the list but hope to double-check the detail when I have more time. Eunice Smith Edinburgh, Scotland

Dean, Have the same in my Scots (Dunlop) family and Welsh (Hughes) family where the mother's maiden name was given to one of the children as their middle name..... Jerri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Black" <dcblack@sympatico.ca> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 5:23 PM Subject: RE: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > As far as I know this naming pattern (using the mother's father's first name > as the middle name for the mother's child, for boys), has been around for > some time. While middle names are not normally recorded I have found them > popping up now and then. My GGGrandfather's (Robert Black) was born in 1822 > in Ramsay Township, Bathurst District, Upper Canada. He married in 1848 and > had two sons. The second son was named after his father. However, only in > his obituary seventy five years later is he listed as Robert "J." Black. The > "J." I have determined stood for John - the first name of little Robert's > mother's father - John McPhee. This Robert John Black had many sons himself, > and one was named John Caldwell Black. "Caldwell" was the family name of his > mother - Mary Caldwell. This pattern of naming a son with a middle name that > matches his mother's father's name, seems to pop up in Irish families and > Scottish families. > > Dean > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheena Jones [mailto:sheenafjones@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: August 1, 2004 6:00 PM > To: Dean Black; DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > > > This pattern is new to me. Could you tell us which part of the world they > lived in? Also which centuries it covered? > > Sheena > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dean Black <dcblack@sympatico.ca> > To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:02 PM > Subject: RE: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > > > > Hello, Has this (very interesting) thread of e-mails discussing naming > > conventions yet addressed middle names? My research into my family tree > has > > uncovered a consistent habit of naming the first born son after his > mother's > > father - where the family middle name is concerned. For example, my > father's > > name Noel Ernest Black reflects his mother's (Marcelle Gauthier) father's > > (Ernest Gauthier) name. Noel's father - Clayton Thomas Black - derives the > > name Thomas from his mother's (Elizabeth Wren) father's (Thomas Wren) > name. > > Any perspectives listers might have on this aspect of naming patterns > would > > be most appreciated. I should add that this pattern is followed without > fail > > for seven generations until it breaks down owing to the early death of one > > man and an early death of another's wife such that he remarries. Where > > children lose a father very early on in life the naming pattern is lost, > or > > so it would seem. Thank you for any information others might be able to > > provide. > > > > Dean > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ian Ritchie [mailto:iritchie1@iprimus.com.au] > > Sent: August 1, 2004 7:24 AM > > To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > > > > > > Thankyou all for the feedback. It appears that my theory is at least > > possible. I don't really have a possible first son's birth or death but > was > > just checking that it was a possiblility. I'm looking for parents for my > > Walter Ritchie (b.circa 1796) and,with no obvious standout > > possibilities,began to look at other scenarios. I found possible parents > who > > would fill the criteria as far as the other children of Walter & Martha > were > > concerned providing I made the assumption that a first son had been born > and > > then,conveniently,died. I know,it's the old long bow again and I've > changed > > the string more than once already but at least I'm still aiming at the > same > > target. > > Incidentally how do illegitimate children figure in this naming scheme? > > e.g.If Martha had a child before she married Walter,and to a different > > father, is it still child number one? or only as far as Martha is > concerned? > > Sorry about that last query - I know I'm pushing my luck. > > > > Ian Ritchie > > > > > > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > > > ______________________________ > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > >

We've started doing this with our children. The girls have got my name for their middle, and the boys have got my husband's for their middle. That way they have an inherited name, but they also have their own identity, if you see what I mean. Probably THE most annoying naming pattern I've come across is a Yorkshire family who named all their children with the same first name, for example Thomas, but called them by their middle names. Arrrggggg! Didn't they stop to think about us crazy genealogists tearing our hair out trying to identify our ancestors!!!!! Best wishes, Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Black" <dcblack@sympatico.ca> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: RE: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > Hello, Has this (very interesting) thread of e-mails discussing naming > conventions yet addressed middle names? My research into my family tree has > uncovered a consistent habit of naming the first born son after his mother's > father - where the family middle name is concerned. For example, my father's > name Noel Ernest Black reflects his mother's (Marcelle Gauthier) father's > (Ernest Gauthier) name. Noel's father - Clayton Thomas Black - derives the > name Thomas from his mother's (Elizabeth Wren) father's (Thomas Wren) name. > Any perspectives listers might have on this aspect of naming patterns would > be most appreciated. I should add that this pattern is followed without fail > for seven generations until it breaks down owing to the early death of one > man and an early death of another's wife such that he remarries. Where > children lose a father very early on in life the naming pattern is lost, or > so it would seem. Thank you for any information others might be able to > provide. > > Dean > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Ritchie [mailto:iritchie1@iprimus.com.au] > Sent: August 1, 2004 7:24 AM > To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > > > Thankyou all for the feedback. It appears that my theory is at least > possible. I don't really have a possible first son's birth or death but was > just checking that it was a possiblility. I'm looking for parents for my > Walter Ritchie (b.circa 1796) and,with no obvious standout > possibilities,began to look at other scenarios. I found possible parents who > would fill the criteria as far as the other children of Walter & Martha were > concerned providing I made the assumption that a first son had been born and > then,conveniently,died. I know,it's the old long bow again and I've changed > the string more than once already but at least I'm still aiming at the same > target. > Incidentally how do illegitimate children figure in this naming scheme? > e.g.If Martha had a child before she married Walter,and to a different > father, is it still child number one? or only as far as Martha is concerned? > Sorry about that last query - I know I'm pushing my luck. > > Ian Ritchie > > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > To reach every member of the list : > Send Email to ....... DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com > >

Evening Would anyone know anything about this place? I had a grand uncle who was a coachman there in 1881. TIA edward Limpsfield, Surrey Using Norton SystemWorks

I have a case the same as this. Jane Graham already had a daughter, who used the father's surname ie Margaret Tulloch. Although Margaret continued to use the Tulloch surname until she married, shewas very close to her step father Jonathan Hodgkinson, and the two brothers John and Jonathan. Incidentally, the first son was named Jonathan, the secondJohn. The first son, Jonathan died. The third son was born and named ...... Jonathan! Good luck, Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Ritchie" <iritchie1@iprimus.com.au> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:24 PM Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > Thankyou all for the feedback. It appears that my theory is at least > possible. I don't really have a possible first son's birth or death but was > just checking that it was a possiblility. I'm looking for parents for my > Walter Ritchie (b.circa 1796) and,with no obvious standout > possibilities,began to look at other scenarios. I found possible parents who > would fill the criteria as far as the other children of Walter & Martha were > concerned providing I made the assumption that a first son had been born and > then,conveniently,died. I know,it's the old long bow again and I've changed > the string more than once already but at least I'm still aiming at the same > target. > Incidentally how do illegitimate children figure in this naming scheme? > e.g.If Martha had a child before she married Walter,and to a different > father, is it still child number one? or only as far as Martha is concerned? > Sorry about that last query - I know I'm pushing my luck. > > Ian Ritchie > > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > >

As a point of interest, in my DUNLOP line, I have found the "normal" (whatever that might be! ; D) pattern but I also found the name of a mid 1800s parish minister (Peter Young) in Wigtonshire who, without doubt, was held in favor with the family when the child was christened! (Or, perhaps they were just running out of boys' names...Just kidding!) It is my understanding that this was not an uncommon practice during those days of the 1800s.... As another aside, my John Dunlop ventured from Drumbeg Farm (probably driving cattle!) to the Welsh mining area of Bedwellty, Monmouthshire mid 1800s and having met a comely lass (assumption!), married and the naming pattern of their children carried two children with the same name....One boy died at about 18 months and the next child ...a boy....was given the exact same name (Edwin Watkin...) To carry it even further the name, "Edwin Watkin " appeared again in the naming pattern of Edwin's sister when she bore children in America..... So, it would seem that was a deeply entrenched element of their lives...to carry their loved ones into the future by using these family names over and over again..... Although honorable, it does drive researchers a tad batty! Jerri in MN USA

Dear All I could really do with some advice on where to go from hear I spent a few hours in Dumfries last week and I might add the people in the family history office were great I only had a couple of hours there as I went by bus I am looking for the Marriage of my G.grandparents Mary Douglas b Dumfries in 1834 and John Sewell born Cumberland 1828 I have never been able to fined any records for John other than his death cert that gave me no clues I know from the 1851 census that John was single and living as a lodger in Carlisle I now have the birth cert of his children all born Carlisle so I know that by June 1853 he was married to Mary Douglas no sighn of the marriage in Carlisle I went to Dumfries to see if there was any record there but found nothing from what I know of my Sewell family I am sure they would have married anyone got any idea where I can go from hear Audrey

Hugh Wallis has an Index on middle names created from the IGI at --> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/ Frank McGonigal Ont.Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Black" <dcblack@sympatico.ca> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: RE: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns > Hello, Has this (very interesting) thread of e-mails discussing naming > conventions yet addressed middle names?

At the beginning of each section of the directory is a description of the area and the section for Moffat (with the parishes of Johnstone, Kirkpatrick-Juxta and Wamphray) says that Moffat is a genteel small town with a wide and spacious High St. It has long been famous for the medicinal virtues of its mineral waters; there being 3 springs. One is sulphurous and called Moffat Well and the other two chalybeate, one called Hartfell Spa and the other Gartpool Linn in the parish of Kirkpatrick Juxta. The Moffat Well is about a mile from the town with a good road leading to it and also bath-rooms in town to which the water is conveyed in leaden pipes. The springs attract visitors from all over Scotland and northern England, hoping to benefit from their healing powers. So presumably all those visitors who come to drink the water stay in the lodging houses!! Irene chalybeate mean it contains iron salts (says the dictionary) Yum, yum................am I glad I live in the 21st century <LOL>

Hello, Has this (very interesting) thread of e-mails discussing naming conventions yet addressed middle names? My research into my family tree has uncovered a consistent habit of naming the first born son after his mother's father - where the family middle name is concerned. For example, my father's name Noel Ernest Black reflects his mother's (Marcelle Gauthier) father's (Ernest Gauthier) name. Noel's father - Clayton Thomas Black - derives the name Thomas from his mother's (Elizabeth Wren) father's (Thomas Wren) name. Any perspectives listers might have on this aspect of naming patterns would be most appreciated. I should add that this pattern is followed without fail for seven generations until it breaks down owing to the early death of one man and an early death of another's wife such that he remarries. Where children lose a father very early on in life the naming pattern is lost, or so it would seem. Thank you for any information others might be able to provide. Dean -----Original Message----- From: Ian Ritchie [mailto:iritchie1@iprimus.com.au] Sent: August 1, 2004 7:24 AM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns Thankyou all for the feedback. It appears that my theory is at least possible. I don't really have a possible first son's birth or death but was just checking that it was a possiblility. I'm looking for parents for my Walter Ritchie (b.circa 1796) and,with no obvious standout possibilities,began to look at other scenarios. I found possible parents who would fill the criteria as far as the other children of Walter & Martha were concerned providing I made the assumption that a first son had been born and then,conveniently,died. I know,it's the old long bow again and I've changed the string more than once already but at least I'm still aiming at the same target. Incidentally how do illegitimate children figure in this naming scheme? e.g.If Martha had a child before she married Walter,and to a different father, is it still child number one? or only as far as Martha is concerned? Sorry about that last query - I know I'm pushing my luck. Ian Ritchie ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Good morning Kathy Your server keeps bouncing my e-mails back - heaven knows why. Had a look at the RCE for you and this is what it said. That the cause of death was a Fracture of the base of Skull and Cerebral Haemorrhage the result of a motor accident. Result of Precognition death occurred on 1 October 1920 at 3.20 pm in the dwelling house at Straith Farm Glencairns Parish. Usual address Laggan Farm Glencairn Parish. Hope that helps a bit. Best wishes. Ewan ROOTS Consulting Services (Scotland) Personalised Tours and all aspects of Genealogical Research - www.ancestryroots.co.uk Ayrshire Online - Family History sources within Ayrshire - www.ancestryroots.co.uk/ayrshire-onlineindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:05 AM Subject: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-D Digest V04 #194

Hi - Looking back in my family tree I have a 15 year old young lad, Joseph, who worked in the mines in Carnock, Fife. He died of Typhoid fever in 1864. Two years later another son was born and given the name, Joseph. I'm sure I've seen instances of this in other branches of the family but can't lay hands on the information at the moment. May

Hi I've made an alphabetical index of the entries in the 1837 Pigot's directory for Dumfriesshire. I'm willing to do lookups ..copy and paste.......... <LOL> if I get swamped, priority will go to D and G FHS members...so if you are one, mention it. The entries for Dumfries town are online at an address Sandy gave a few days ago but I've done the whole county. It's still worth buying the facsimile booklet from GC books............ there are some interesting details in the descriptions of each area. For example did you know it only took 12 hours to go by ship from Annan to Liverpool? or that before 1810 the inhabitants of Maxwelltown were notorious for their disorderly conduct? Irene

I've had the same experience as Irene with a second Robert in a family after the elder one died as a boy....... edward Limpsfield, Surrey Using Norton SystemWorks

Hello Irene, I've not seen this yet in any of my work, but what you say has given me a totally new perspective for my research. I'm sure what you say here will help others. I truly appreciate your response. Thank you so much, Barbara In a message dated 01/08/2004 00:06:01 GMT Daylight Time, thyword21@earthlink.net writes: If he died in the first week of life, as in one case I know about, the name was passed on. If the first son had started school, say, or had even lived long enough to establish an identity in society, the name would probably not be reused, except perhaps as a middle name Mmm I don't know that I'd quite agree with that. A rapid look through my tree has found one child dying at the age of 11 and another being given the same name 7 years later, another two year old's name being reused and a one year old daughter's name being used again 6 years later. OK perhaps a child who had lived long enough to be a personality perhaps would have his name reused for the next child of the same sex but it wouldn't be a bar for future use. and although I can't find them at the moment I'm sure I've seen instances where a couple just kept naming their daughters the same until they got one who survived. Irene

In a message dated 01/08/2004 00:06:01 GMT Daylight Time, thyword21@earthlink.net writes: If he died in the first week of life, as in one case I know about, the name was passed on. If the first son had started school, say, or had even lived long enough to establish an identity in society, the name would probably not be reused, except perhaps as a middle name Mmm I don't know that I'd quite agree with that. A rapid look through my tree has found one child dying at the age of 11 and another being given the same name 7 years later, another two year old's name being reused and a one year old daughter's name being used again 6 years later. OK perhaps a child who had lived long enough to be a personality perhaps would have his name reused for the next child of the same sex but it wouldn't be a bar for future use. and although I can't find them at the moment I'm sure I've seen instances where a couple just kept naming their daughters the same until they got one who survived. Irene

Good morning, David Hartley 3/Mar/1834 Mochrum Wigtown.Father James Hartley Mother Margaret Christie. Thanks John

Hi Ian, I think that if the 3rd son could not be named for his father for the reason you gave, then the son would get the name of his father's eldest brother, and probably not chosen arbitrarily, unless of course there were no other sons in the father's family. In which case, my thinking would be to consider the mother's eldest brother. As for the first son dying, at what age did he die? If he died in the first week of life, as in one case I know about, the name was passed on. If the first son had started school, say, or had even lived long enough to establish an identity in society, the name would probably not be reused, except perhaps as a middle name. Just my thoughts. Barbara Brown Allen -----Original Message----- From: Ian Ritchie <iritchie1@iprimus.com.au> Sent: Jul 25, 2004 10:19 PM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [D-G LIST] Scottish Naming Patterns Hi Listers, I have a query which will hopefully not be totally obscured by my fractured logic. If a first son was born and named after the paternal grandfather as per the Scottish naming pattern. Then a second son was born and named after the maternal grandfather. A third son was born and would normally take his father's name but could not because,since the father had the same name as the paternal grandfather,that name had already been given to the first son. Thus he was named arbitrarily. Then say the first son died! Is this son then discounted from the pattern allowing a new,now third son,to take the father's name as the original is now defunct? My apologies for this hypothetical situation the answer to which could send me off into a new frenzy of searching. Ian Ritchie ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== FIND YOUR ANCESTORS http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/