Hi Audrey, I will take a look if you like. I am not promising anything but if I can't read it someone else on the list surely will. Regards Shona21@blueyonder.co.uk

Hi all after a week on Scot people site I have found the birth of a great cousin born in Dumfries but the very thing I am looking for place of birth I can not read I have sent off my £10 for a full copy but have to wait 14 days for it to arrive I wonder would someone on the list from dummies be willing to take a look and see if they can read it for me I have anti virus on my computer so it would be safe thanks Audrey

Thankyou to everyone who answered me. I've checked the nls Judy and found a map of the area that was really helpful. Thanks! Leeona

I too enjoy 'looking in' on all the postings. I've been following the messages on naming patterns with interest. The habit of using surnames as second christian names is not confined to Scotland, it appears south of the border too. In particular one of my Northamptonshire families used names such as SMITH, THOMPSON, JEFFERY, SABIN, as children's middle names. So it becomes very important to follow the family history practice of using CAPITALS for SURNAMES to show which is the surname. My mother's uncle was referred to as "Longden Oakes" in his lengthy obituary but in fact he was William Longden OAKES, Longden being a family surname passed down through the generations as a second christian name - to girls as well as boys. In Scottish research there is the great advantage of course that women retained their maiden name. If that had been the practice in England it would have been a great help to me with my English ancestors - including my maiden name where the relevant marriage entry c1795 appears to have gone up in smoke when the parish registers caught fire! Yes, a genealogists nightmare come true. Happy hunting everyone, Helen, NSW, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine thomas" <christine@thomas7765.fsnet.co.uk> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:49 PM Subject: [D-G LIST] Penpont > I read all the listings with interest and live in hope that someone will refer to my TOOLAN family! What caught my eye were the recent listings about Penpont cemetery. Is Penpont a Gaelic word? The reason I ask is that Penpont in Welsh would mean "on top of the bridge" - is there a bridge near the cemetery? Sorry I can never help anyone with their enquiries but I enjoy looking in! From Chris South Wales > > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > ********************************************************************* > If you have any problems with this list or any of its members please > contact the listowner....Tom Welch....tomas@directcon.net > ********************************************************************

At 13:49 04/08/2004, christine thomas wrote: >I read all the listings with interest and live in hope that someone will >refer to my TOOLAN family! What caught my eye were the recent listings >about Penpont cemetery. Is Penpont a Gaelic word? The reason I ask is that >Penpont in Welsh would mean "on top of the bridge" - is there a bridge >near the cemetery? Sorry I can never help anyone with their enquiries but >I enjoy looking in! From Chris South Wales The dictionary of place names in Scotland agrees with you. One of the classic photos of the church is taken from the bridge with the River Scaur in the foreground and the church on an escarpment about 200 feet higher(60 meres) _ Regards John Leicester UK. www.awcc.org.uk www.albanich.co.uk with family tree Researching Sharpe and Findlater in Penpont

Pat wrote, > I'm looking for John GLOVER who died in Amisfield, Tinwald parish, > in 1852,I believe. > He would have been about 62yr. He was buried in the Churchyard in Tinwald. > Would SKP be able to help me with an MI for him and/or immediate family ? > His wife was Margaret GLOVER going by the 1851 Census. > Here are five John Glovers all in Tinwald! First listed has a wife named Margaret and fits the bill for d.o.d and age. See the Listowners Tom's (Listowners) website for source information. Location: Tinwald Churchyard, Dumfriesshire Ref: T. Welch, Rootsweb (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~scottish/D-GInscriptions.html) 1. Wm. GLOVER, student, died Amisfieldtown 21st Sep 1848 aged 26 yrs Also John GLOVER, father, died Amisfieldtown 21st Jan 1852 aged 62 yrs Also Thos GLOVER, Dumfries, (son of John), died 16th Nov 1852 aged 26 yrs Also Margaret POOL, wife of John, died Amisfieldtown 4th May 1861 aged 74 yrs Summary Surname Forenames Death Birth Remarks Glover John 1852 1790 Glover Thomas 1852 1826 Glover William 1848 1822 Pool Margaret 1861 1787 2. John GLOVER, died Kirkmichael [?] Nov 1803 aged 83 yrs Also Mary MAXWELL, wife, died [?] Dec 1794 aged 81 yrs Also Robert GLOVER, son of John, weaver, Dalscone, servant to F. JOHNSTONE in Leighton of Tinwald, killed by a cart 11th Mar 1818 aged 32 yrs Also John GLOVER, died Upper March Hill 14th Sep 1832 aged 72 yrs Also Marion SLIMMON, wife, died Castle Garden, Dumfries, 5th Feb 1840 aged 84 yrs Summary Surname Forenames Death Birth Remarks Glover John 1832 1760 Glover John 1803 1720 Glover Robert 1818 1786 Johnstone F. Maxwell Mary 1794 1713 Slimmon Marion 1840 1756 3. Janet GLOVER, daughter of John GLOVER, Amisfieldtown, died 9th May 1800 aged 17 yrs Also Mary GLOVER, daughter, died 5th Sep 1803 aged 18 yrs Also Agnes and Martha, infants Also Janet CREIGHTON, wife of John GLOVER, died 9th Apr 1832 aged 75 yrs Also John GLOVER died 27th Dec 1826 aged 85 yrs Summary Surname Forenames Death Birth Remarks Creighton Janet 1832 1757 Glover Agnes Surname assumed Glover Janet 1800 1783 Glover John 1826 1741 Glover Martha Surname assumed Glover Mary 1803 1785 4. Mary SPENCE died 3rd May 1769 aged 72 yrs Also Jacob GLOVER, her husband, died 4th Jun 1795 aged 96 yrs Also John GLOVER, son, died 7th June 1814 aged 80 yrs Also Hugh SPENCE died 16th Feb 1893 aged 66 yrs Summary Surname Forenames Death Birth Remarks Glover Jacob 1795 1699 Glover John 1814 1734 Spence Hugh 1893 1827 Spence Mary 1769 1697

I read all the listings with interest and live in hope that someone will refer to my TOOLAN family! What caught my eye were the recent listings about Penpont cemetery. Is Penpont a Gaelic word? The reason I ask is that Penpont in Welsh would mean "on top of the bridge" - is there a bridge near the cemetery? Sorry I can never help anyone with their enquiries but I enjoy looking in! From Chris South Wales

Hi List, I'm looking for John GLOVER who died in Amisfield, Tinwald parish, in 1852,I believe. He would have been about 62yr. He was buried in the Churchyard in Tinwald. Would SKP be able to help me with an MI for him and/or immediate family ? His wife was Margaret GLOVER going by the 1851 Census. Thank you very much for any help, Pat McIndoe (a ggg-grandson)

As this interesting e-mail thread on lying about one's age, during the early 1800s makes its way through the incredible pool of knowledge that is the DG List, I thought I would start a second thread. This time I am eager to hear your thoughts regarding the crippled. I raise this issue because from my perspective and focus (emigration to Canada from Scotland in the early 1800s) men lied about their age so as to get on board the ship, and they also lied about the physical condition of their kin and children. Again, my GGGgrandfather Walter Black was 53 when he boarded the George Canning. However, I am told the age limit was 50. Anyone over that age would not be permitted to board because he was considered at risk, and not capable of surviving in the Canadas. For similar reasons those afflicted with physical ailments were also not permitted. Children (teenagers) with club-foot maladies, for example, were left on the dock to bid farewell to their families. Interestingly enough, however, my GGGgrandfather brought his wife and five children. The eldest boy, however, was deaf and dumb. Is this a physical ailment that might have prevented his passage? Does anyone else have examples of cripples who were not permitted to make the journey? What about those with obvious physical ailments that were permitted to make the journey? Looking forward to hearing from you. Dean

Well my three, never married, Young great aunts lived with my grandfather and their brother (William Albin Young) until they died. I have them in a series of census records. They only seemed to age some seven or eight years per decade. My father lied about his age to get in the Army where he served for 33 years. Naturally having once lied on an important official matter he was stuck with the lie. His social security application (I have a copy in his handwriting), driver's license, etc. all show him to be a year older than his birth record. The birth record is known to be accurate. Bill Epling -----Original Message----- From: Dean Black [mailto:dcblack@sympatico.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:04 AM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Lying About One's Age Tongue in cheek, of course, I lay this subject out knowing it is one better suited to the ladies out there, than the men. :0) In all seriousness, however, I have noted with quite interest the number of men who lied about their age so as to ensure a berth for their family and passage to Canada in the early 1800s. My own GGGGrandfather - Walter Black - is recorded as 40 years old, as he boarded the George Canning on 14 April 1821 for the Bathurst District in Canada. However, his grave marker cites a birth date of 1769. Clearly he was 53, and not 40. Are there any other stories out there that might shed some additional light on this practice? Was this the only reason why men would lie about their age? Kindest regards from Canada Dean Black ______________________________

I'm new to the list and so haven't got a complete background on this topic as discussed, but it is one I've been interested in for a long time. My mother was named Mary Irving Johnstone THOMSON. She hated her name with "all those family names" until I found out that Mary Irving was the name of a great great grandmother of hers. She already knew that the "Johnstone" was her own mother's surname. She then became quite taken with the idea that she was a living link to 200 years of family history. Indeed her mother had her mother's surname as a middle name, Mary Crawford JOHNSTONE, as did an uncle, Hugh Crawford JOHNSTONE. On my paternal side, I have come across examples of unmarried women naming their child after the father. If the child was a boy, he was sometimes given the full name of the father plus the surname of the mother. For example, John Gleaves DEASINGTON was born in 1875 in Wolstanton, Staffordshire. The marriage of John GLEAVES and Mary Ann DEASINGTON was in 1876 in Wolstanton. ..... Jack Leigh Surname interests (18th & 19th centuries) in Dumfries & Galloway. Many of these families later moved to Carlisle, and/or Whitehaven, and/or Wigton in Cumberland, England. Annan - HEWITT, IRVING, JOHNSTONE, KIRK, SHORTT, SIVEWRIGHT, THOMSON Penninghame - CRAWFORD Sorbie - WYLIE, McKNIGHT (my son-in-law's family) Castle Douglas - JOHNSTONE Langholm - DALGLEISH

Hi list, Very interested in all the email re: naming patterns, and was wondering if anyone else had come across any illegitimate children with apparent surnames as middle names? I believe that if a child was born illegitimately and the father wasn't present at the registration the mother was unable to put him in the official records. i wondered if the practice of giving the child his surname as a middle name was a clever way of side stepping the law and getting the fathers name in official records?? a theory, but one born out of one example in my family tree. I'd be interested in other's views of this theory, Best regards, Sue Harley Researching: McHarrie et al in Stoneykirk

Tongue in cheek, of course, I lay this subject out knowing it is one better suited to the ladies out there, than the men. :0) In all seriousness, however, I have noted with quite interest the number of men who lied about their age so as to ensure a berth for their family and passage to Canada in the early 1800s. My own GGGGrandfather - Walter Black - is recorded as 40 years old, as he boarded the George Canning on 14 April 1821 for the Bathurst District in Canada. However, his grave marker cites a birth date of 1769. Clearly he was 53, and not 40. Are there any other stories out there that might shed some additional light on this practice? Was this the only reason why men would lie about their age? Kindest regards from Canada Dean Black

A journey: My American husband's great-grandfather, Patrick Skiffington, Donaghmore, Co. Tyrone, Ireland, was party to a huge fib about his age when the recruiting sergeant lopped off quite a few years when he was enlisted to fight with a Baltimore, Maryland regiment during the American Civil War. He was closer to 50 than 40, and as he suffered from rheumatoid arthritis maybe he wasn't agile enough to get up and run when his regiment was under attack at Harper's Ferry, as he fell on his bayonet and sustained injuries to his kidney area which resulted in his death six months later. His wife had to fight for a pension for him, which was finally awarded by the army three years later. See, "the truth will make you free!" and if he had not lied about his age, to make himself younger, maybe he'd have lived for another 20 years anyway. Maybe! I can only conjecture that he needed to join the U.S. Union Army for the pay as his wife, Bridget Kelly, appeared to be illiterate. One can only surmise the quality of life they might have had not being educated. I think Patrick could write, however. This twisted me around in trying to find out his real age, as you can imagine, but I still don't have documentation of his age, only what the U.S. Army records indicated how old he was (perhaps), and pension records which list his wife and children, but that's about the extent of the family "tree." It's all been by a process of elimination...Sherlock Holmes reincarnated...and how I wish! The U.S. army records were interesting in other ways, however, in describing what he looked like...height, colour of hair and eyes, but key things were left out, such as his parents... From this little bit and that little bit of information, we managed to trace his burial place to New Cathedral Cemetery, Baltimore, where he had been re-interred from Old Cathedral Cemetery, when Johns Hopkin's hospital bought the old cemetery. Another red herring was that Patrick was buried with a family by the name of Hardester, which meant nothing to us. The clerk in the cemetery office said it was quite common for unrelated people to share the same grave, especially if they were re-interred, as in this case. The grave was marked with a lair number, no name, no anecdotal information that he was a veteran of the Civil War. The record book in the cemetery had just the plot number and his name, and I believe the date of re-interment. We even went to Donaghmore once when I was home on holiday, to try to get more of a fix on old Paddy, but the priest said his records went back only as far as the 1870s, and that we should try to trace him through Dublin. I never followed up on that as it was going to cost a "wee packet" and at the end of the day, it could have produced nothing. If Patrick was about 47 in 1863, this would mean that he'd be born around 1816. How on earth would I be able to go back so far to confirm his birthplace, siblings, parents, etc? Any suggestions, please, as I've gone around in circles over the years trying to put Patrick where he belongs on the "tree!" Maisie -----Original Message----- From: Bill Epling [mailto:wepling@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:18 AM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [D-G LIST] RE: Lying About One's Age Well my three, never married, Young great aunts lived with my grandfather and their brother (William Albin Young) until they died. I have them in a series of census records. They only seemed to age some seven or eight years per decade. My father lied about his age to get in the Army where he served for 33 years. Naturally having once lied on an important official matter he was stuck with the lie. His social security application (I have a copy in his handwriting), driver's license, etc. all show him to be a year older than his birth record. The birth record is known to be accurate. Bill Epling -----Original Message----- From: Dean Black [mailto:dcblack@sympatico.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:04 AM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Lying About One's Age Tongue in cheek, of course, I lay this subject out knowing it is one better suited to the ladies out there, than the men. :0) In all seriousness, however, I have noted with quite interest the number of men who lied about their age so as to ensure a berth for their family and passage to Canada in the early 1800s. My own GGGGrandfather - Walter Black - is recorded as 40 years old, as he boarded the George Canning on 14 April 1821 for the Bathurst District in Canada. However, his grave marker cites a birth date of 1769. Clearly he was 53, and not 40. Are there any other stories out there that might shed some additional light on this practice? Was this the only reason why men would lie about their age? Kindest regards from Canada Dean Black ______________________________ ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== FIND YOUR ANCESTORS http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/

There is a Buchan just south of Castle Douglas on the western shore of Carlingwark Loch. It is also on the road from Castle Douglas to Kirkcudbright, so it may have had a tollbar at one time. However, as I've done no research on the history of Buchan, I can't say for sure. Jenny Gibson. ----- Original Message ----- From: "william robb" <williamrobb@bigpond.com> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:49 AM Subject: [D-G LIST] Buchan Tollbar > Hi everyone! > We've come across birth certificates that list the place of birth as being Buchan Tollbar in Kelton. We've tried finding it, but so far no luck. Has anyone else heard of it? Could someone possibly point us in the right direction to find information about it.... > Thanks heaps, have a great day! > Leeona > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > DO NOT send files as Email attachments to the list. > Send them privately - person to person. > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% >

Hi everyone! We've come across birth certificates that list the place of birth as being Buchan Tollbar in Kelton. We've tried finding it, but so far no luck. Has anyone else heard of it? Could someone possibly point us in the right direction to find information about it.... Thanks heaps, have a great day! Leeona

Did you have to pay a big ransom Sandy or did you just use some of your Scottish charm to talk your way out of the prison camp?!!! Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: <DFSGAL@aol.com> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: [D-G LIST] dgfhs.org.uk is back > Hi Folks, > Dumfries and Galloway Family History Website is back and is again accessable > at www.dgfhs.org.uk . > > Our former ISP (Freenetname) finally let us get back into the world this > morning after holding us prisoner for six weeks. > > Anyone who bookmarked the temporary location, www.research-centre.freeola.com > , need not make any changes unless they want to. I have arranged it so that > both URLs point to the same bit of cyberspace holding our website. > > Regards to all, > > Sandy > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > ******************************************************************** > To UNSUBSCRIBE > send a message to DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L-request@rootsweb.com (for mail > mode) or DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-D-request@rootsweb.com (for digest mode) with > only the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the message body. NO subject, NO signature. > ************************************************************************

Tom, Have a look on my site at www.chouston.f2s.com as James Lorimer and Margaret Dalziel are there with their 11 chidren, etc, amongst all the other Lorimers - no guarantee that my info is 100% correct. Regards Charles --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. My genealogy database in online at www.chouston.f2s.com Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.727 / Virus Database: 482 - Release Date: 26/07/2004

I have very similar surname patterns in my family. Several of my mid-19thC ancestors from Dumfries were given surnames as middle names. Some I have found to be mother's maiden names which have then been carried on into subsequent generations. One is named Burns - presumably after Robbie ! but there are several for which I haven't found a source of the name yet. It can be very helpful in linking families together, and finding marriages etc., but can lead you up the wrong track if they were named after a family friend! Alison __________________________________________________________________ Get Tiscali Broadband From £15:99 http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband

Hi just reading the other day that under the legislation toll houses were supposed to be demolished once the capital was paid off. could that have something to do with it? try looking at the maps at www.nls.ac.uk Dont suppose you would find a toll house before 1750 unless perhaps it was for pontage (bridge tolls) Judy ---------- >From: "william robb" <williamrobb@bigpond.com> >To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [D-G LIST] Buchan Tollbar >Date: 03, Tue Aug, 2004, 3:49 pm > > Hi everyone! > We've come across birth certificates that list the place of birth as being > Buchan Tollbar in Kelton. We've tried finding it, but so far no luck. Has > anyone else heard of it? Could someone possibly point us in the right > direction to find information about it.... > Thanks heaps, have a great day! > Leeona > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > DO NOT send files as Email attachments to the list. > Send them privately - person to person. > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% >