Hi list and especially Irene, I've had to take my computer in to be fixed so will be off air for a few days. Ian Ritchie.

Hello - I want to pose a question here, because this is the most progressive list that I belong to and there are a lot of expertise here that I DO NOT find anywhere else. I have a Will that (along with many other things) makes me think: JONET GREIRSONE, dated October 15th, 1582; CC8/8/11, pages 3. Edinburgh Commissary Court.... ....sometime spouse to William MacFadzeane in BARSEWALLA [sic], alias BRAIDWELL..... Notice how Barsewalla [sic] is alias Braidwell? My question is, - have their been studies by scholars that pinpointed or identified these ancient little villages, towns, compared them and perhaps written books that gives their history.....one example that we have in the United States is something entitled "extinct towns". Can someone direct me to a good source? David ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.tqci.net --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by tqci.net]

Hi Saw your posting some time ago. What caught my eye is the Frood Carruthers Murray relationship in Lochmaben ive seen on another posting however could not get in touch with the writer. My family Carruthers Associated names: Murray,Swan,Neilson,Bobbett,McDonald,McVite. From the areas of orignally Urr Kirkcudbright,Lochmaben,Kirkmichael,Mouswald,Kirkmahoe & Closeburn. example below Elizabeth CARRUTHERS born Lochmaben 17-12-1820 she had a brother William CARRUTHERS born Mouswald 23-aug 1822-12-10-1863 William married Mary MURRAY born 1829 Kirkmichael died 27-4-1906 at crossroads William & family buried at Dalgarnock cemetery near Thornhill. Will&Eliza's parents were James Carruthers x Mary McDonald I have a lot more on this if you wish, can you see any connections to your line ? many thanks rgds Ian Carruthers............... home@zim.co.zw ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardson Rai <rair@sbcglobal.net> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 5:21 PM Subject: [D-G LIST] Roll Call > http://www.gallda.com > > Richardson > Associated surnames: Beaumont, Bonstead, Frood, Hannah, Johnson, Norred, Scott, Wilson, Wright > Earliest Known Place/Date of Origin of Surname Family: Hightae, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - 1742 > > Wilson > Associated surnames: Agee, Beaumont, Caldwell, Constant, Enos, Frood, Johnson, Norred, Richardson, Wilson, Wright > Earliest Known Place/Date of Origin of Surname Family: Kirkmahoe Parish, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - 1747 > > Frood > Associated surnames: Carruthers, McMine, Murray, Rae, Wilson > Earliest Known Place/Date of Origin of Surname Family: Lochmaben Parish, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - 1773 > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > If your line involves the surname GRAHAM why not join > CLAN-GRAHAM-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >

There is a MI an St Cuthberts Kircudbright no 606 which reads . James Milroy ship carpenter died 10.1837 aged 50. Widow Margaret Black died 14.10.1864 aged 73. First son John died Kelso 2.4.1856 aged 37. First daughter Marion died High Blantyre 1.1.1865 aged 49 (husband G McMaster) Youngest son Peter died Melbourne Australia 6.7.1871 in his 35th year. Youngest daughter Catherine died Liverpool 14.4.1871 aged 37 (husband G Dunning). Second son Alexander died 26.5.1891 aged 70. Fourth son James died 1.7.1901 aged 69. Second daughter Margaret died 27.1.1903 aged 78. Third son Thomas McClune died Bendigo 30.10.1904 aged 78. Margaret Scarlett died London 21.12.1904 aged 72, interred here, husband James Milroy. Stone 603 reads In memory of Robert Black ship carpenter who died 26.7.1792 aged 28, also daughter Margaret. As Margaret Black died after 1855 you should be able to obtain an image of her death entry from Scotlands People, which will tell you her parents,assuming that the informant knew this. Hope this is of help to you. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Y Milroy" <ymilroy@hotmail.com> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:39 AM Subject: RE: MI for Black > I was wondering if anyone had an MI for Margaret Black, born c. 1791, d. > 1864, married James Milroy, Kirkcudbright. I am particularly interested in > who her parents were. Thanks > > _________________________________________________________________ > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen > Technology > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. > > ______________________________

Kathy, Thanks for the quick reply. It's much clearer now. I'm glad to hear that the extracts on scotlandspeople is more accurate and is being updated. Even so, as I always tell others, go directly to the source and dont trust extracts. Yours aye, John Jardine Cincinnati, Ohio USA D&G FHS Member #1918 Alba mo dhuthaich gu deireadh mo la! (Scotland my homeland forever!) JARDINE/JARDEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Annan, Applegarth, Wamphray, Torthorwald, Collin, Racks, Cummertrees, Powfoot, Mouswald, Kirkmichael, Templand; GREEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; RAE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; MOFFAT in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; McMILLAN in Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Irongray; HALLIDAY in Irongray; BRODIE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; DICKSON in Mouswald; HOPE in Annan; JOHNSTON(E) in Applegarth, Kirkpatrick-Juxta; PORTEOUS in Applegarth; RICHARDSON in Applegarth

This comes from the FAQ on the ScotlandsPeople web site: Is the OPR data on ScotlandsPeople the same as that found on the LDS website? Theoretically yes, however not all the OPR data available on ScotlandsPeople can be accessed in the LDS church's International Genealogical Index (IGI). In addition, the GROS are constantly updating the indexes as customers, many of them professional genealogists, highlight errors and misinterpretations in the original documents. The LDS are unable to reflect these changes, in the IGI, which was compiled from old microfilms of the records made in the 1950's and 1960's. Also, here is another explanation, from their site: The images available on this site are scans taken directly from the microfiche held by GROS; therefore they contain the same information you would normally see when looking at the actual record. So as you can see, their data is not derived on LDS microfilm; rather the LDS microfilm was built from GRO and parish data. Kathy Orlando, FL (facing a second hurricane!!) -----Original Message----- From: JJardcinc@aol.com [mailto:JJardcinc@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:57 AM To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [D-G LIST] OPR Records on Scotlandspeople vs. LDS IGI I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'd like a clarification. Are the pre-1855 OPR birth and marriage records on the Scotlandspeople website directly derived from the LDS IGI, or were they extracted and verified independently from the microfilms created by LDS? I hope the latter, since some of the patron submissions are highly suspect, to say the least. The reason way I bring this up is that I have found that not all birth and marriage records from the microfilm for Kirkcudbright BMDs were extracted to the IGI; some year gaps were found. Yours aye, John Jardine Cincinnati, Ohio USA D&G FHS Member #1918 Alba mo dhuthaich gu deireadh mo la! (Scotland my homeland forever!) JARDINE/JARDEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Annan, Applegarth, Wamphray, Torthorwald, Collin, Racks, Cummertrees, Powfoot, Mouswald, Kirkmichael, Templand; GREEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; RAE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; MOFFAT in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; McMILLAN in Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Irongray; HALLIDAY in Irongray; BRODIE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; DICKSON in Mouswald; HOPE in Annan; JOHNSTON(E) in Applegarth, Kirkpatrick-Juxta; PORTEOUS in Applegarth; RICHARDSON in Applegarth ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== FIND YOUR ANCESTORS http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/

Here they are, plot #606, Kirkcudbright. (next to 604 which has Robt. Ker & Mary. McWhinnie) Jas MILROY ship carpenter d 10.1837 age 50 (Sept. 1837) w Margt BLACK 14.10.1864 73, 1s John d Kelso 2.4.1856 37, 1da Marion d High Blantyre 1.1.1865 49 (h G McMASTER), yt s Peter d Melbourne Aus 6.7.1871 35th yr, yt da Cath d Liverpool 14.4.1872 37 (h G DUNNING), 2s Alex 26.5.1891 70, 4s Jas 1.7.1901 69, 3s Thos McClune d Bendigo 30.10.1904 78. Margt SCARLETT d London 21.12.1904 int. here, h Jas MILROY. Barbara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Y Milroy" <ymilroy@hotmail.com> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:39 AM Subject: [D-G LIST] RE: MI for Black > > I was wondering if anyone had an MI for Margaret Black, born c. 1791, d. > 1864, married James Milroy, Kirkcudbright. I am particularly interested in > who her parents were. Thanks > > _________________________________________________________________ > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen > Technology > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > FIND YOUR ANCESTORS > http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/ >

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'd like a clarification. Are the pre-1855 OPR birth and marriage records on the Scotlandspeople website directly derived from the LDS IGI, or were they extracted and verified independently from the microfilms created by LDS? I hope the latter, since some of the patron submissions are highly suspect, to say the least. The reason way I bring this up is that I have found that not all birth and marriage records from the microfilm for Kirkcudbright BMDs were extracted to the IGI; some year gaps were found. Yours aye, John Jardine Cincinnati, Ohio USA D&G FHS Member #1918 Alba mo dhuthaich gu deireadh mo la! (Scotland my homeland forever!) JARDINE/JARDEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Annan, Applegarth, Wamphray, Torthorwald, Collin, Racks, Cummertrees, Powfoot, Mouswald, Kirkmichael, Templand; GREEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; RAE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; MOFFAT in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; McMILLAN in Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Irongray; HALLIDAY in Irongray; BRODIE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; DICKSON in Mouswald; HOPE in Annan; JOHNSTON(E) in Applegarth, Kirkpatrick-Juxta; PORTEOUS in Applegarth; RICHARDSON in Applegarth

I too found the information helpful but unless my gt gt grandfather left farming very early I can't see that he served a very long apprenticeship as he was under 25 and had already established a shop as a Draper in Newark in his own right by 1841. Perhaps if there was financial backing in the family becoming a Draper was much easier than the route described earlier! Dorothy Holden Dover Kent England Uk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04

I was also glad to see this item, as I was puzzled by my great grandfather William Dewar becoming a travelling draper in Lanarkshire, when his marriage certificate stated he was a miner living in Carluke - maybe I need to check the Hamilton newspapers of the time to see if similar adverts appeared there. Also another great grandfather James Cavet moved from Thornton/Penpont and married a lass from Merthyr Tydfil - another draper? He later became a railway policeman and moved the family to London, Clerkenwell. More puzzles to solve. This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates.

Adding to Yvonne's message, there's a high probability that she's buried in St. Cuthbert's Cemetery, Kirkcudbright - we hope! So if anyone has the MI booklet for this cemetery and can do a quick lookup, we'd be grateful. And possibly make Yvonne & I connected via the RAEs of Kirkcudbright. Yours aye, John Jardine Cincinnati, Ohio USA D&G FHS Member #1918 Alba mo dhuthaich gu deireadh mo la! (Scotland my homeland forever!) JARDINE/JARDEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Annan, Applegarth, Wamphray, Torthorwald, Collin, Racks, Cummertrees, Powfoot, Mouswald, Kirkmichael, Templand; GREEN in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; RAE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbright; MOFFAT in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; McMILLAN in Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Irongray; HALLIDAY in Irongray; BRODIE in Dumfries, Maxwelltown; DICKSON in Mouswald; HOPE in Annan; JOHNSTON(E) in Applegarth, Kirkpatrick-Juxta; PORTEOUS in Applegarth; RICHARDSON in Applegarth

I was also glad to see this item, as I was puzzled by my great grandfather William Dewar becoming a travelling draper in Lanarkshire, when his marriage certificate stated he was a miner living in Carluke - maybe I need to check the Hamilton newspapers of the time to see if similar adverts appeared there. Also another great grandfather James Cavet moved from Thornton/Penpont and married a lass from Merthyr Tydfil - another draper? He later became a railway policeman and moved the family to London, Clerkenwell. More puzzles to solve. This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates.

I was wondering if anyone had an MI for Margaret Black, born c. 1791, d. 1864, married James Milroy, Kirkcudbright. I am particularly interested in who her parents were. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.

Dear List, I would be grateful for the site for the 1841 & 51 census of Dumfries and Galloway that was listed a while back , I have lost it unfortunately . Thank you to some kind person, Margaret in NZ.

.........can I add to what Sandy says? The booklets are not very expensive and enormously useful - definitely worth thw investment! edward Limpsfield, Surrey Using Norton SystemWorks

Margaret in NZ <steinthall@xtra.co.nz> writes: The 1841 census for D&G is not online only the 1851, which was indexed by The Friends of the Archives in Dumfries (including a num,ber of DGFHS members). see: http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/services/depts/comres/library/archives.asp DGFHS have indexed the 1841 census for the whole of D&G and have published it in booklet form. Sandy > > Dear List, > > I would be grateful for the site for the 1841 &51 census of Dumfries and > Galloway that was listed a while back , I have lost it unfortunately . > > Thank you to some kind person, > > Margaret in NZ. > >

Hello all - I've just subscribed to the list, hoping to find out more about my husband's family from Dumfries & Galloway - WILSON family, originally of Glenvernoch, Penninghame (line solid back to John WILSON & Grizel/Margaret GORDON of Glenhapple/Glenvernoch, but from family tradition, I'm sure they're descended from Thomas, the brother of Margaret WILSON the Wigtown Martyr). Apart from trying to trace the family back through the couple(?) of generations between John and Thomas, I'd be very interested if anyone can help with the GORDON family. McMILLAN family of New Luce (Mary McMILLAN m William WILSON in New Luce, 6-11-1849 - I think Alexander was her father and Mary her mother - possibly Mary WALLACE(?)) MUNDELL family of Torthorwald/Lochmaben (A completely different line, not connected to the above families as far as I know!) Also the families of Jean RAE (late C17th), Jean MARCHBANK (mid C18th) & Margaret GRIEVE (late-ish C18th), who married into the MUNDELL family. A lot to start with, I know, but I'd really like to hear from anyone researching any of the above families. Many thanks! Alison Lawrie

Hi there I am only visiting your site as most of my interest takes place with your neighbours in Wigtownshire. I am however pulling at a few straws and thought I would run this request past you. Any information would be of great value. I have a relative known as Peter McDowall, he was born abt 1775, and died prior to the 1851 census. He married Mary Kelly and with her had 3 children, John b abt 1820; Peter b abt 1821; and Grace b abt 1828. I can pick up the traces of their lives after the 1841 census but before that there is little or no information His wife Mary Kelly's parents are James Kelly and Lilias Glen - Lilias may well have been born and lived in Ayrshire James I think undoubtedly came from Ireland and on Mary's death certificate it states she was born in Ireland. Peter was a farm labourer and would possibly have been working on farms without his family with him. has anyone come accross anything to do with this family? Regards Margaret McDowall --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

Hi Irene and all, Thanks so much for that piece of information and history. It was of great interest to me, too as my g grandfather was a draper in Preston, Lancashire. He left Annan when he was 21 years of age. He'd been brought up on a farm outside Annan. Truly Grateful, Maureen POOL HOPE THOMSON SCOTT MACKIE FARISH in Annan. Was there a training school in Dumfries for Drapers? No but many young men from the Galoway region were recruited as drapers. A founder member of the D and G FHS has studied this and below are the sketchy notes I took during a recent talk on the subject he gave to the society........... there are other notes on the talk in the recent society newsletter, and articles on the subject in previous newsletters Innes had used the Dumfries and Welsh newspapers as sources ...plenty of adverts ...... looking for young 17-20 years old men of farming stock and used to the hard physical work of agriculture (because they had to carry bales of cloth on a round that might be 10 or 12 miles long) to become scotch drapers and tea dealers ..tea because it had such a high profit margin. The young men went off all over England but heaviest concentration in Lancashire and Methyr Tydfil.... biggest town in Wales in early 19th century. Whitechapel in London. Many came from the Glenkens area and Balmaclellan. Wages offered were £7-£10 per annum in the 1840s to about £20-25 in the 1850s and 60s + board and lodging and often clothes at cost price. Sometimes instead of wages they were offered a promise to set them up in business at the end of the 3 years. Often those advertising for young men were the older successful ones who'd started off the same way but now had acquired several 'rounds' and employed the young men to do the actual physical walking round with the goods. They wanted sturdy, sober (even teetotal) young men, not older than about 21, and definitely with no previous experience of being a draper. And adequate education ..basic writing and arithmetic ....not over educated. Because the business was run on credit and with illiterate customers there were lots of opportunities for fiddling and embezzlement...so no-one who might have the experience or the intelligence to do this was wanted. One chap was sacked for having an Irish mother. They would have to apply by letter to England or perhaps to local agent ...often schoolmaster or innkeeper. If successful they would probably walk to their new job..... or possibly take a ship to Liverpool..but stage coach would be too expensive. Successful ones, after working for 10 years or so and recruiting others to work for them, could acquire enough money to buy a farm ..not unusual to have made £2000 in the 1820s and 30s and even £5000 in the 1870s. There were quite a few newspaper reports of exhorbitant rates of interest and excessive profits...led to the formation of the Scotch Drapers Association ..to defend the trade against such attacks. Irene ______________________________

Hi Emma and Irene, My apologies.I should have checked the marriage certificate before jumping into print. Marriage 5 Oct 1876 at Gateside of Trench, Dumfries (Banns) Dumfries L 101 1976 Groom Ebenezer Lockerbie (25) Mason Journeyman /Bachelor/Gateside of Trench, Dumfries/Parents-Thomas Lockerbie(deceased)& Mary Biggar Bride Janet Crone (20) /Spinster/Doctorswell,Gateside of Trench, Dumfries/Parents- Thomas Crone/Farmer (deceased) & Janet Murray Ebenezer Lockerbie does not appear on 1881 Census as there are a number of Enumeration Districts missing. I have found him on 1861 Dumfries, US Census 1900,1920,1930 . I'd be happy to supply further information. Regards, Joan Regards, Joan