"why diminish their potential communication pool by teaching children in gaelic or urdu or any other of the UK's minority languages? By all means encourage and support their culture..." You want to encourage culture while banning minority languages? "How many foreign language posts do we get on this list?" Are you saying that Gaelic is a foreign language??? If you want posts in Gaelic, I'm sure that there are several list members could oblige. Iain ----- Original Message ----- From: Lowlandscot@aol.com To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Sent: 16 November 2004 09:13 Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Re: Why Gaelic? In a message dated 15/11/2004 20:24:16 GMT Standard Time, Copywriter@tesco.net writes: I think it was David Blunkett who advised young people to stop talking urdu to their grannies and speak English instead!! Language is a tool for communication. The greater number of other people with whom one can communicate the better. So why diminish their potential communication pool by teaching children in gaelic or urdu or any other of the UK's minority languages? By all means encourage and support their culture - we can see how the Scots and other emigrants took their culture with them when they went to North America but they did not refuse to relinquish their native language. How many foreign language posts do we get on this list? ...and would we understand them if we did! Irene ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== ********************************************************************* If you have any problems with this list or any of its members please contact the listowner....Tom Welch....tomas@directcon.net ********************************************************************

I cannot resist responding to the most recent messages on the Dumfries and Galloway list regarding the common means of communication between peoples i.e. spoken or written language. The discussions have tended to concentrate on Gaelic. I think that I am correct that in the most recent census persons who spoke Gaelic were invited to indicate that fact so that it could be recorded and an assessment of need and appropriate services could be made. However people with hearing impairment whose means of communication is Manual Communication were not given any such opportunity. Similarly those persons with a severe (and in some cases life-long) vision impairment whose main means of receiving written information is a raised text method i.e. Braille or Moon had no opportunity to have that fact registered. Since it has not been registered there is (once again) no means of assessing the need for such provision. As such it is not likely to receive attention nor result in consequent funding for the provision of appropriate services. This is a particular shame to Scotland as in the very late 18th century Thomas Blacklock (himself blind from early years) who was born in Annan, grew up in Dumfries and for a time was a minister in Kirkcudbright was the inspiration for and instigator of services to the blind in Scotland. The Institution set up in Edinburgh (1793) within a short time of his death was the second in the UK country after a similar instituion was set up in Liverpool. The Edinburgh Institution was a model for many others. It was much admired in the UK and further afield and was compared favourably with that in Liverpool and other later establishments in its ethos and practice. This time was prior to the invention and development of braille. Blacklock was indeed responsible for bringing the first `raised text' into Britain. In the early 18th century many persons in Scotland were active in devising models so that the `blind' could receive written communications. There is currently a `Right to Read' charter promoted by The Royal National Institute of the Blind. This aims to bring to public attention how greatly those with vision impairment continue to be disadvantaged regarding access to written material. Similarly a development/offshoot of that 18th century establishment (Blindcraft) is presently facing the threat of closure or major loss of jobs. One correspondent has mentioned David Blunkett in relation to his comments re Urdu. Let us look forward (not too far) to the day when everyone has an equal opportunity to access and produce written texts. We on D&G list are interested in the past - let us make sure that we do everything that we can to make it accessible to everyone irrespective of the difficulties of communication. Please excuse this long message - it is an extremely important current issue. Eunice Smith Edinburgh, Scotland

Hello, I have just joined this List. One of my Surname interests is IRVING from around the Ruthwell-Mouswald and so far I have been able to get back to David IRVING b c1788 Ruthwell, d 1860 @ Plans, Ruthwell who m Elizabeth HALL c1812 Lochmaben, d 1857 @ Plans,Ruthwell. children:: John 1813 - William 1814-1872, m Mary McROBERT Janet 1816 - Hellin 1818 - Samuel 1820 - Edward Garvin 1823 - Helin 1825 - James 1825 - Jonah Nicholson 1827 - Andrew Haliday 1829 - All born Ruthwell From David and Elizabeth's dth reg I have their parents: John IRVING/Janet DICKSON William HALL/Helen PORTIOUS I wondered I anyone else out there has an interest in this family or can give me more information on John IRVING & WILLIAM HALL. Thank you, Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth, My wife has Irvings in her tree so I have been collecting some. Contact "Emma Elizabeth" <emma_elizabeth2@hotmail.com>. who has posted some info on your family. Regards Charles ------------------------ Descendants of John IRVING Generation No. 1 1. John1 IRVING was born Abt. 1765 in of Searigg, Dalton, Dumfries, Scotland. He married Janet DICKSON. She was born Abt. 1769 in Dalton, Dumfries, Scotland?. Child of John IRVING and Janet DICKSON is: + 2 i. David2 IRVING, born 16 Feb 1791 in Searigg, Dalton, Dumfries, Scotland Generation No. 2 2. David2 IRVING (John1) was born 16 Feb 1791 in Searigg, Dalton, Dumfries, Scotland. He married Elizabeth HALL, daughter of William HALL and Helen PORTEOUS. She was born Abt. 1798 in Lochmaben, Dumfries,Scotland Re 1851 Census. More About David IRVING: Burial: Mouswald Occupation: 1851, Labourer/ farmer of 5 Acres at Plans, Ruthwell More About Elizabeth HALL: Occupation: 1881, Labourer's widow at Gair Croft, Kirkpatrick Fleming Children of David IRVING and Elizabeth HALL are: 3 i. John3 IRVING, born 1813 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. 4 ii. William IRVING, born 1814 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. More About William IRVING: Occupation: 1851, Agric lab at Ruthwell at Comlongton Mains 5 iii. Janet IRVING, born 1816 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. 6 iv. Samuel IRVING, born 1820 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. 7 v. Helen IRVING, born 1824 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland Re 1851 Census at Ruthwell. More About Helen IRVING: Occupation: 1881, Unmarried, News agent at Plans Cottages, Ruthwell 8 vi. James IRVING, born 1825 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. 9 vii. John Nicholson IRVING, born 1827 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland. 10 viii. Andrew Halliday IRVING, born 1831 in Ruthwell, Dumfries,Scotland Re 1851 Census at Ruthwell.

In a message dated 15/11/2004 20:24:16 GMT Standard Time, Copywriter@tesco.net writes: I think it was David Blunkett who advised young people to stop talking urdu to their grannies and speak English instead!! Language is a tool for communication. The greater number of other people with whom one can communicate the better. So why diminish their potential communication pool by teaching children in gaelic or urdu or any other of the UK's minority languages? By all means encourage and support their culture - we can see how the Scots and other emigrants took their culture with them when they went to North America but they did not refuse to relinquish their native language. How many foreign language posts do we get on this list? ...and would we understand them if we did! Irene

In Scotland, Scots is also deserving of support. And there are large groups of people speaking eg Urdu. In the case of Urdu, it is very sad to see this language (spoken by more Scots than Gaelic is) treated as a handicap rather than an attainment. I think it was David Blunkett who advised young people to stop talking urdu to their grannies and speak English instead!! We are going to look a bit sick when the high tech industries in the sub-continent really take off and we have no urdu speakers left! And we would be outraged if for example, Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia were told to forget about their language and culture, because it came from thousands of miles away. So when it comes to supporting minority languages, we should be open-minded and even-handed. Judy PS Eid mubarak, by the way! ---------- >From: "Lavendersblue" <lavendersblue@ntlworld.com> >To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Re: Why Gaelic? >Date: 15, Mon Nov, 2004, 2:59 pm > > Scouse, Cockney, Geordie, > Cornish

When I told my cousin about the Graham's he ran to the computer to do a Google search for the Graham tartan etc. How could I tell him? He was just so excited; it took him away from his dreary day to day problems, and gave him something nice to think about. He has even made a shield thingy (yes I know, and I'm not even blond!) that shows his heritage...well, that's what it said on the website, so it must be true!! Just gladhe can't afford to send off for anything 'official'! lol Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dutch Thompson" <dutchink@isn.net> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] J Davidson/Passport > Hello all- > A personal note to add to Muff's great summary & Margaret's comment > about Gaelic traditions " for the sake of tourism": > Five yrs ago on my 1st visit to Orkney, the stronghold of the > Norse/Vikings > for centuries before the Orkney Islands became a marriage dowry, I was > wearing a Cunningham tartan tie-my mum's family. On the ferry from > Scrabster > to Stromness several Orcadians commented jokingly to me that I'd better be > careful since there was "none of that tartan foolishness in Orkney." > And no tartans (nor gaelic) proved to be the case...until I visited again > in > 2002 and lo & behold what do I see in just about every craftshop in > Kirkwall > but bolts of "the official Orkney tartan"- hot off the looms for the > cruiseship tourists who come to Scotland expecting to see tartans > everywhere. > The Orkney tourist board decided it was better to switch than fight... > > The point has been made that we of Scottish descent are more than just 1 > strain of genes whether Scotti or Welsh or Anglo Saxon or Norse- most dog > trainers will tell you the "Heinz 57" breeds are usually smarter. > > cheers Thompson in Prince Edward Island, Canada > (where boatloads of Scots started arriving in 1770) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Margaret Cameron" <margaret077@sympatico.ca> > To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 9:59 AM > Subject: [D-G LIST] J Davidson/Passport > > >> If Scotland wanted to become a 'country' again, wouldn't it be simpler >> for >> a country to have its own passport, but, then, of course, noting the fact >> that the majority of highland families departed the country known as >> Scotland centuries ago, and now Scotland is really just a part of that >> countrly named England...without any Gaelic traditions except for the >> sake >> of tourism...for gullible descendants of highland origin...etc. >> >> >> ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== >> FIND YOUR ANCESTORS >> http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/ >> > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > ********************************** > YOU HAVE ENTERED A FLAME FREE ZONE > ********************************** > >

My husband was German but was always very insistent that the "Celts' came from the Black Forest in Germany, therefore, I was really German... From a book written by Gerhard Herm, it states: "This people called Galli by the Romans and Galatai or Keltoi by the Greeks did not fit in with any of the Ancients' notions of humanity. In the words of the Greek historian Diodorus(Himself born in Sicily and hence known as "Siculus"): 'Their aspect is terrifying...they are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not ...they look like wood demons....their hair thick and shggy like a horse's mane...' ....on the Caspian Sea there grew up, possibly as early as 1800 BC, the third of the three great barbarian peoples, among whom the Greeks also included the Iberians and the Celts: the Scythians(though the earliest archaeological evidence dates from around 700 BC) Herodorus tells a story about them......there are three main conclusions to be drawn, first, that this steppe people had customs similar to those of the original Indo Europeans and were perhaps related to them.... ...we may presume that traces of the Celtic imagination have survived in fairy tales as an inheritance buried under Latin culture and Germanic traditon..it is clear that the old Irish were a part of the people that built Manching and almost defeated Caesar... As mentioned, the first Celtic speaking tribes came to Ireland as far back as the Hallstatt period. After the beginning of the La Tene era these were followed, via Britain, by other wandering hordes who spoke a Brythonic..,.once they had settled in Ireland, thely took on the old Goidelic language, although it was their art that established itself. Their swords, torcs, and vessels were almost identical with those of the continent; as in Germany...the wheels of their chariots had iron tyres which were laid glowing on to the wooden rims --a Celtic invention..." The Celts originated in Russia and overran Europe, eventually crossing over to England(Belgae Celts) etc. A further quote, "By the twelfth century the nucleus, the people that had started it all, lived hardly anywhere in the old way, save in the far north of Scotland......." Of course there was that intermix with the Vikings.... Also, the north of Ireland (Ulster) the Dalriada was always a separate culture from the south of Ireland....

Muff, what a great history lesson. Of course people moved about, as you said. It seems that Native Americans were originally from the Mongolia area, and that they travelled north, and then across and down through what we call Canada when the landmass was joined. Some stayed in Canada, and some went south, down through America, dropping off and colonising areas as they went. But going back to the Celtic and the Gaelic, it must be preserved. The Welsh are using their language more frequently, as do the Republic. But let us not forget other minority British languages, such as Scouse, Cockney, Geordie, Cornish, and not forgetting of course, the Public School English <ENORMOUS BIG GRIN> lol Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Muff Worden" <muff@eldhorn.is> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 12:47 PM Subject: [D-G LIST] Re: Why Gaelic? > I've gotten a chuckle from this - and have to counter with "why NOT

Hello all- A personal note to add to Muff's great summary & Margaret's comment about Gaelic traditions " for the sake of tourism": Five yrs ago on my 1st visit to Orkney, the stronghold of the Norse/Vikings for centuries before the Orkney Islands became a marriage dowry, I was wearing a Cunningham tartan tie-my mum's family. On the ferry from Scrabster to Stromness several Orcadians commented jokingly to me that I'd better be careful since there was "none of that tartan foolishness in Orkney." And no tartans (nor gaelic) proved to be the case...until I visited again in 2002 and lo & behold what do I see in just about every craftshop in Kirkwall but bolts of "the official Orkney tartan"- hot off the looms for the cruiseship tourists who come to Scotland expecting to see tartans everywhere. The Orkney tourist board decided it was better to switch than fight... The point has been made that we of Scottish descent are more than just 1 strain of genes whether Scotti or Welsh or Anglo Saxon or Norse- most dog trainers will tell you the "Heinz 57" breeds are usually smarter. cheers Thompson in Prince Edward Island, Canada (where boatloads of Scots started arriving in 1770) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Cameron" <margaret077@sympatico.ca> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: [D-G LIST] J Davidson/Passport > If Scotland wanted to become a 'country' again, wouldn't it be simpler for > a country to have its own passport, but, then, of course, noting the fact > that the majority of highland families departed the country known as > Scotland centuries ago, and now Scotland is really just a part of that > countrly named England...without any Gaelic traditions except for the sake > of tourism...for gullible descendants of highland origin...etc. > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > FIND YOUR ANCESTORS > http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/ >

Hello ALL, I am no expert on Scottish History, but I have read some of the books on the IRVINGS, and there are many of them, and they give the origin of the Irvings as the West coast of Spain.from where they moved to the East coast of Ireland and then across to the West coast of Scotland and the Scots called them "ERINEINE'S". From this name has come the many spellings of Ervin/Erwin/Irvin, etc.etc.. Betty Irving in Australia.

Well, there was a BIG STRAMASH in dear auld Glesga toon a few years ago, when a wee lass answered "Aye" to a question asked her by the Sheriff in the Sheriff's Court in Glasgow. He admonished her to speak "proper English!" Pure out and out snobbery, because we from one end of the British Isles to the other know perfectly well what aye means. Maisie Glesga an prood o' it! ----- Original Message ----- From: "J A Olsen" <Copywriter@tesco.net> To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Re: Why Gaelic? > In Scotland, Scots is also deserving of support. And there are large > groups > of people speaking eg Urdu. > > In the case of Urdu, it is very sad to see this language (spoken by more > Scots than Gaelic is) treated as a handicap rather than an attainment. I > think it was David Blunkett who advised young people to stop talking urdu > to > their grannies and speak English instead!! > > We are going to look a bit sick when the high tech industries in the > sub-continent really take off and we have no urdu speakers left! > > And we would be outraged if for example, Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia > were > told to forget about their language and culture, because it came from > thousands of miles away. > > So when it comes to supporting minority languages, we should be > open-minded > and even-handed. > > > > Judy > > PS Eid mubarak, by the way! > > > > > ---------- >>From: "Lavendersblue" <lavendersblue@ntlworld.com> >>To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [D-G LIST] Re: Why Gaelic? >>Date: 15, Mon Nov, 2004, 2:59 pm >> > >> Scouse, Cockney, Geordie, >> Cornish > > > ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If your line involves the surname BRUCE why not join > CLAN-BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com and find out more. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >

I've gotten a chuckle from this - and have to counter with "why NOT Gaelic?" For the same reasons that someone else put in. Also, to be inclusive in perhaps one of the two areas of UK where English is not the native language. I was just mentioning to someone a conversation in the fall of 1996 with the poet Uilleam Neill (Willie Neill) who lives in Crossmichael in the Stewartry, wherein the question arose of what sort of Gaelic was spoken in what's now Dumfries & Galloway in centuries past. Willie, for those who don't know him, is an ardent Scottish nationalist and fluent Gaelic speaker who has edited many books of literature and poetry in that language. His take on the matter is that very early on, that area was largely populated by the P-Celtic-speaking Brythonic Celts who occupied a large part of England and Wales, but that at about the same time as the Irish Scoti (speaking a Q-Celtic language we now call Gaelic) moved in a large number to settle in western Scotland and to form a Scottish kingdom of Dalriada, quite a number did move south of the Clyde River as well, the land being excellent. He feels there is no question that the various Celts managed to understand each other despite the Brythons saying "pen" for head and the Scoti saying "ceann," nearly the same pronunciation, one using P and one using a K sound, easily understood once you get the idea. Then, it seems that he had found descriptions of Prince Charlie's army of highlanders and Irish moving through the area on their way into England, with Gaelic being the language in use ... and he stressed that the locals in D&G had no problem in understanding or conversing with the soldiers. Beyond that, I am reminded constantly of how far people traveled in early days, on foot or on horseback or later in carriage or wagon, and it is truly impressive, and not just in UK, I mean all over the world. With the need for trade and exploration, not to mention war and exploitation, it makes sense that folks from north of the Highland Line would travel southward to look around, trade, take up residence, and so on. There were always pathfinders and always people to follow along the paths. So I agree with Willie that there would have been folks who spoke the Gaelic in D&G (probably still are), mixed in with Brythonic Celts, Angles and Saxons and Normans, the latter of whom were merely Norse folk who, in their travels by sea and land, found a nice place that's now called Normandie, after them, and settled there, the same way they settled in Scotland, northern England, and Ireland. The growing season was much longer in those places than in Norway, from which most of them came. Same with Highlanders/Islanders, who may have found the more southern lands much more suitable to farming than those in the stony hills up north and west. And Shetland and Orkney, along with Sutherland and Caithness, were owned by Norway (after the viking invasions started in AD 793, many vikings and Norse farmers settled in those areas as well as in Northern England and Ireland and Man) and were given to Scotland when Margaret, the Maid of Norway, who was granddaughter of Alexander III, was to inherit his crown and become queen of Scotland in 1290 at the age of 7, and Edward I had the grand idea of marrying her to his son Edward (II). But the boat she was on went down in a storm, there was a fight for the regency, John Balliol was elected as regent, and Edward I found this a good enough reason to try to subjugate Scotland. But that's why the name Sutherland, or "south land," which was the southernmost county of Norway, is at the top of Scotland. Scotland accepted the land in lieu of the queen and has kept it since. Yes, there were also vikings from Denmark, but that's another history lesson. Cheers - Muff On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 07:00 AM, DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > From: "James Milligan" <jimbobaloobub@btinternet.com> > To: <DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:03 AM > Subject: [D-G LIST] Why Gaelic? > > >> I am surprised that so many people, especially on this list, are >> taken in > by the notion that we are somehow connected to Gaelic culture - > witness a > call for a Gaelic passport. What absolutely self deluding, pathetic, > romantic nonsense. Historically we are not. This myth struck up with > the > Victorian novelists and has the world thinking we are haggis eating, > kilt > wearing Gaelic whinging twits. OK, go back several hundred years and > people > from South West Scotland did speak some form of Gaelic (perhaps more > associated more with Cardiff than Stornoway) - but then go back even > further > and we were probably all Ethiopians. Muff Worden Ranargata 3 710 Seydisfjordur Iceland Phone: +354-472-1775 Mobile/Cell/GSM: +354-849-2744 Web: www.geocities.com/mworden.geo/

Innes McLeod's Galloway (Edinburgh: John Donald Publishers (1986), ISBN 0-85976-114-2) says, at pages 87-88: "After the collapse of Northumbria, Anglian 'governors' and landed men and churchmen may still have maintained some order in galloway into the 900s or even the 920s, but they were eventually overwhelmed by new invaders from the north and the west, the Gall-Ghaiidhil or 'foreign Gaels', partly pagan and partly Christian, men from the Hebrides and Kintyre and from Ireland and Man. National and notional boundaries changed between Britons of Strathclyde and Scots and Picts and Danes and Norsemen with alarming rapidity, but Galloway was securely part of the new North Sea empire from Norway and Iceland and Greenland to the Faroes and Shetlands and Orkneys to Man, and eastern Ireland and Cumberland through most of the tenth and eleventh centuries." I can't find the reference now, but I'm sure I've read that many Galloway place names have Norse origins. Fleet, as in Water of Fleet, was one (from "flojt"?) and I think Twynholm was another. Cheers. Dan MacMeekin At 12:47 PM 11/15/2004 +0000, Muff Worden <muff@eldhorn.is> wrote: >. . . >And Shetland and Orkney, along with Sutherland and Caithness, were owned >by Norway (after the viking invasions started in AD 793, many vikings and >Norse farmers settled in those areas as well as in Northern England and >Ireland and Man) and were given to Scotland when Margaret, the Maid of >Norway, who was granddaughter of Alexander III, was to inherit his crown >and become queen of Scotland in 1290 at the age of 7, and Edward I had the >grand idea of marrying her to his son Edward (II). But the boat she was >on went down in a storm, there was a fight for the regency, John Balliol >was elected as regent, and Edward I found this a good enough reason to try >to subjugate Scotland. But that's why the name Sutherland, or "south >land," which was the southernmost county of Norway, is at the top of >Scotland. Scotland accepted the land in lieu of the queen and has kept it >since. > >Yes, there were also vikings from Denmark, but that's another history lesson. > >Cheers - > >Muff Dan MacMeekin Silver Spring, Maryland, USA Dumfries & Galloway Family History Society member #2839 Researching McMiken, McMekin, McMeekin, McMichan, etc. from Girthon and Anwoth parishes, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland

Hi Anita, Further to my previous posting, this is what I’ve transcribed from the Penninghame OPR: “Andrew McNiel & Jean Lockhart procld 11 June 1815” ”Andrew McNeil and Jean Lockhart had a Lawful Daughter Born 15th Baptized 17th Augt 1817 named Helen Rutlage” The Kirkinner OPR has the following entry in 1815: “June 10 McNeil Andrew Penninghame & Jean Lockhart” From this, its safe to say that Jean was living in the parish of Kirkinner at the time. The following is from the Glasserton OPR in 1849: “John Neil Labourer and Ann Butcher, both residing at Balcraig, Glasserton were regularly proclaimed 7th October in order to marriage, no objection having been offered.” This is from the census: Glasserton, 1841, ED 4, Page 3, Balcraig White fields. 1 Andrew McNeil / 45 / / H. L. W. / y Jean do / / 45 / / y Andrew do / 10 / / / y Cont. page 4 . . . . . William McNeil / 8 / / / y / Rubina do / / 6 / / y // Jane Layborn / / 79 / / [blank] I looked thru the Kirkinner baptism register (OPR) from 1780 thru 1800. I have studied this section of that film several times, because my McDOWALLs were living in Kirkinner parish back then. From 1780 thru to 1795, there are large gaps left on each page, as though the minister or session clerk expected other people to come along and have their children registered. In 1795, these gaps no longer appear, and the number of baptisms picks up and stays around the same for many years. I think your Andrew McNEIL was born before 1795, and like my gg’grandfather, (who I think was born 1793 or 1794), missed out on being registered. Regards, Bruce

My maternal grandmother was a Johnstone/Irving(Axeltreewell Farm, Dumfries).... ----- Original Message ----- From: Margaret Cameron To: DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: Kilt etc. The word 'kilt' is derived from the Danish Viking word meaning 'to gird'. (i.e. - the Kam in Cameron derives from the Danish Viking root 'kam'.) The female name "Grizel" is from the Gaelic and is often 'translated' into the English "Grace". The names "Johnstone(pronounced John=SON), and "Irving" are often stated to be of Norse Viking origin. (i.e. - the Normans were NORSE from the Orkneys). Dublin(Lindow/or, Dark Lake)is from the Gaelic(dubh= dark) but the city was once a Norse Viking capital. The Belgae Celts entered the British Isles from the Netherlands on the European continent. The Iberians(Welsh) are stated to have come from 'Spain,.' hence the language was different to the Scotch/Irish(Erse/Gaelic). Dumfriesshire was originally settled by the Celts and Norse.

Hello Betty, I am researching some Irving relatives on behalf of my daughter-in-law. Are any of the names listed below mentioned in your family tree? WILLIAM IRVING - b. circa 1837 in Annan, Dumfries. Married Janet Jackson in 1862 in Annan, and they had 7 known children, all born in Annan:- William Irving - b. 1863 James George Irving - b. 1865 Peter Jackson Irving - b.1866 John Irving - b. 1868; d. 1868 John Irving - b. 1869; d.1946 Jane Ann Irving - b.1871 Jessie Porteous Irving - b. 1872 JOHN IRVING (above - b. 1869) married Mary Dalziel in 1897 in Castlehead, Paisley. They had 4 children, all born in Broughton, Salford Janet Jackson Wallis Irving - b. 1898 Norman John Irving - b. 1900 Mabel Jean Irving - b. 1901 William Alexander Irving - b. 1909 Regards Michael from Lancashire In a message dated 15/11/2004 02:20:51 GMT Standard Time, birving@alphalink.com.au writes: Hello ALL, I am no expert on Scottish History, but I have read some of the books on the IRVINGS, and there are many of them, and they give the origin of the Irvings as the West coast of Spain.from where they moved to the East coast of Ireland and then across to the West coast of Scotland and the Scots called them "ERINEINE'S". From this name has come the many spellings of Ervin/Erwin/Irvin, etc.etc.. Betty Irving in Australia. ==== DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY Mailing List ==== FIND YOUR ANCESTORS http://www.directcon.net/tomas/Ancestry/index.html/

My grandmother was a Sutherland who descended from a Sutherland(Sudr--) family from the Kyle of Tongue which, at one time, was a Norse settlement wherein the people spoke only Norse. Also, on the east coast of Scotland in and about Lybster, Wick(VIK)etc., many people in 1955 stated they were of 'Norse' descent(no Gael).

If Scotland wanted to become a 'country' again, wouldn't it be simpler for a country to have its own passport, but, then, of course, noting the fact that the majority of highland families departed the country known as Scotland centuries ago, and now Scotland is really just a part of that countrly named England...without any Gaelic traditions except for the sake of tourism...for gullible descendants of highland origin...etc.

Somerled(MacDonald)king of the Isles descended from the Norse as did his wife, Raghildis...a family feud....