But which country didn't have vast swathes of poverty stricken working class folks in the 19th century? Have you ever read "How Green Was My Valley" by Richard Llewellyn, about the crushing poverty in Welsh mining communities, or "The Scots Quair" by Lewis Grassic Gibbon about poverty stricken Scottish crofters, or "The Ragged Trousered Phimanthropist" by Robert Tressell about poverty stricken English painters in Hastings? I think we are in danger of losing sight of the original question here. There IS no shortage of old tombstones in Donegal. No more so than anywhere else in these islands. Just look in the right places - mainly Church of Ireland churches, which are older than Presbyterian or Catholic churches. There are plenty of stones left by the Victorian middle classes in Donegal, just as in England or Scotland or Wales, but ordinary working class folk, no matter which country they lived in, rarely left stones until the 20th century. For a start, they were illiterate - have you never looked at 19th century marriage records and seen all those big Xes? Not much point in marking a stone when you couldn't read it! And secondly, yes, agricultural labourers, which is what they mostly were - mine certainly were - they were dirt poor - just as they were everywhere else in the world in the 19th century. And they most certainly did not sink into any bogs. Donegal has some of the finest agricultural land in Ireland in the Laggan Valley. As for the EU, most Irish people will be aware that in the controversial referendum held only four weeks ago, the people of Ireland brought the EU juggernaut to a juddering halt by voting NO to a new constitution for the EU. Irish people believed it would have damaged Ireland's neutrality and brought about unwanted social changes and too much immigration, but they also voted No because they had been told by the French and the Germans that they, the Irish, should be thankful for all the benefits that the EU brought us, and vote YES. We are a cussed folk, I'm afraid! And proud too. The French and the Germans now wish to press on without Ireland, and, I am sure you will be struck by the irony here, it is likely to be the British who will ride to Ireland's rescue and veto such a move. So, the EU is a very touchy subject here at the moment. Best not mentioned. Especially as it is off topic! Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm -----Original Message----- From: Beth Cherkowsky [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 04 July 2008 19:55 To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: 'IRL-Donegal - List'; [email protected]; 'IRL-Donegaleire-L'; 'IRL-CO-Donegal'; 'Siobhan' Subject: RE: [IRL-CO-DONEGAL] [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - CtyDonegal The fact of the beauty and culture of the country existed doesn't mean they weren't dirt poor. If they hadn't been dirt poor then fewer of them would have died of starvation during the Great Famine and all the other famines and crop failures and bloody purges. SNIP