Nick, Some do.... I've talked to many that say so. It's an onging problem for me. Somehow, I am less Donauschwaben because of the mixed ethnicity. Did not mean to offend you. Oh, thank you for a wonderful book. Rita > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 16:31:24 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > There must be a mistake here! No Danube Swabian born and living in the Danube-Swabian settlement area would or could ever claim to be a "Reichsdeutscher". A "Reichsdeutscher" is a German citizen of the German Reich. In modern times they were at various times citizens of Hungary, Romania, Serbia/Yugoslavia, but never citizens of the Reich. > Some real Reichsdeutsche did have something like a superiority complex. When our DS men (then called Volksdeutsche) were "volunteered" into the German armed forces (1943) some of them were called insulting names such as Beutedeutscher, meaning "booty German" or "Spoil-of-war German". Many "volunteers" were hugely disappointed. Members of DS families fleeing from the invading Red Army suffered a similar fate when they arrived in the Reich. I know many who returned to (Soviet-occupied) Romania. > Those who read my book (thank you!) are already aware of that. > > Nick Tullius > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jody McKim Pharr > Sent: 4-May-14 15:00 > To: 'Rita Schiwanowitsch'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > You wrote " But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor." > > Do you really believe this? > In all the years I've been involved in DS research and circles I've been in, I've never heard the term "Reich Deutsch" in reference to the ethnicity of the Donauschwaben. The Reich was not in existence during the settler days (1700's). > Even if you simply meant it as an example, and I can only speak for the DVHH and DS Club members I know, our Danube Swabian heritage is the purpose we gather and try to keep their memory alive. > > Closer to home, my own main ancestral line (surname INGRISCH) actually came to Banat while in the military and I'm not sure if he came by boat, wagon or horse. He was born and raised to adulthood in Rojau, Bohemia. His mother tongue was German (I also have the Catholic church records from the early 1700's, in German). He married a DS woman in Banat and so forth, here I am. Even though he was ethnic German (mother tongue=German), I am a Donauschwaben descendant because he married a German Banat settler (mother tongue=German) who traveled down the Danube --- where the term originated from. > > We all should keep in mind there is so much more to our DS ancestors then the language they spoke, and for that I am honored to wear that badge. > > Thank you for your perspective Rita. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:10 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Nick... > I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. > My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. > But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. > Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." > Thank you for listening to me, > RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > > Citizenship > > > > Hi Rita, > > > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not > > consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The > > Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people > > never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. > > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with > > interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously > > had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality > > of the majority in many parts of the Empire. > > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about > > the nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > > > Best regards, > > Nick Tullius > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > > Schiwanowitsch > > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Nick... > > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel > > that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in > > mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier > > (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the > > villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. > > Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of > > Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few > > Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward > > along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from > > in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In > > that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional > > incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally > > fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early > > Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the > > mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, > > so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had > > numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this > > differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. > > They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage > > is much more "colorful". > > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion > > > or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also > > > called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their > > > neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for > > > their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal > > > experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village > > > (96 percent German > > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in > > > contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany > > > and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian > > > literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and > > > newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > > > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and > > > rests on a solid foundation, > > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant > > > who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself > > > both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics > > > about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old > > > country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that > > > until the end of WWII > > there were very few. > > > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. > > > It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be > > > remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as > > > some amorphous > > multiethnic entity. > > > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit > > > presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > > message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message