Thank you, Rainer Herrmann for your thoughts. I for one appreciate your perspective and humor. I think your comments are very level headed. It is a perspective that I as an USA citizen do not have, after growing up in the Midwestern USA and spending the most recent 30 years here in Arizona. My Sudeten Deutsch cousin Otto Bier, who passed away in 2012, told me once about his WW2 experience. He was drafted at a just turned age 17 into the German Wehrmacht from his home in Zwittau, Moravia, Czechoslovakia in 1945. He spent 2 months in basic training and was captured by the Russians. He spent the next 1 and 1/2 years in Soviet prisoner of war camps. Once freed and released into West Germany, he worked at whatever to survive in post WW2 Germany, mostly on farms in Southern Germany. It took him almost a year to find the surviving members of our larger Pospischil/Bier surviving family through the International Red Cross. They began reuniting in Germany around Grebenau in late 1947 and early 1948. Upon revisiting the Bier family home in Zwittau in 2007 with his wife Wilhelmina, Otto and myself, we had heard that certain former residents of the community were seeking a return of their former family property or to be able to repurchase. I asked Otto what he thought about that concept. I will never forget his forgiving response. He said "John, we have had and have a good life in Germany. For me to force a return to a lifestyle and world that died many decades ago serves no purpose! If we tried to do that, we would be no better than those who forced us from our homes in 1945. Rainer, I wanted to write this because I feel like yourself and Otto Bier that some things, terms and so on are better left in the past, to be examined and discussed by Historians. Mistakes learned from so we all can have a better future. Again, thank you, John J. Kornfeind in Glendale, AZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Rainer Herrmann" <mail@rainerherrmann.de> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 8:41 AM To: "'DVHH'" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an > enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with > growing > concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some > of > the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am > surprised > that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. > Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history > should > have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. > Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: > > When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him > "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a > translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case > Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from > Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even > when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used > instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and > Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. > > I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der > Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: > Amalthea. > There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and > officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger > from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". > Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where > they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities > was > put together. > > We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all > stem > from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in > a > distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border > between > the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans > only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And > they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. > This > is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where > restored > by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They > did > not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital > for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. > > Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found > out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I > assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were > "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On > their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again > somewhere down the Danube. > > For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: > My > mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the > Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the > "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress > against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the > doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I > belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all > black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. > > Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the > experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the > idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster > of > the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer > most > when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the > concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger > ones > with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in > the > superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the > word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the > rare > cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the > "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and > excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. > > Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: > Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on > their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents > blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who > determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single > truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and > where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am > allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with > Karen > and all the others please!!! > > Best regards > > Rainer Herrmann > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John > J. > Kornfeind > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 > An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela > Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but > I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive > term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings > I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves > of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern > Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this > process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate > peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer > Schachtels, > where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only > rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a > new > people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two > cents > worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > >> >> I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is >> discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. >> History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that >> actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who > commanded the chisel. >> Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. >> There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and >> cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, >> there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, >> we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of > history. >> >> >> Daniela Ivkovic Showley >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> >> >> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was >> great to get your detailed and supported opinions. >> But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself >> openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your >> views. >> >> If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more >> comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> >> >> >>> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >>> Catch ya later. >>> Karen. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> >> >>> Jody and Karen, >>> >>> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >>> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >>> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >>> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >>> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >>> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >>> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >>> culture, a history. >>> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >>> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >>> the DS were not essentially a German group. >>> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >>> reality interferes. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Nick >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message