Remember the old TV commercial? Some times I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel like a German, sometimes I don't. Frank - Windsor On 5/6/2014 2:04 PM, Dan Larson wrote: > Dear Rainer, > > You and Karen and all the others with widely diverse family histories are all welcome here. > > That's all I will say for now - typing this on my phone. > > Best regards, > > Dan Larson > DVHH President > > Sent from my Droid Maxx > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rainer Herrmann <mail@rainerherrmann.de> > To: 'DVHH' <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tue, 06 May 2014 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an > enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing > concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of > the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised > that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. > Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should > have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. > Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: > > When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him > "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a > translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case > Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from > Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even > when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used > instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and > Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. > > I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der > Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. > There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and > officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger > from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". > Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where > they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was > put together. > > We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem > from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a > distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between > the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans > only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And > they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This > is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored > by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did > not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital > for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. > > Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found > out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I > assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were > "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On > their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again > somewhere down the Danube. > > For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My > mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the > Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the > "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress > against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the > doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I > belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all > black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. > > Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the > experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the > idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of > the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most > when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the > concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones > with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the > superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the > word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare > cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the > "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and > excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. > > Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: > Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on > their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents > blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who > determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single > truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and > where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am > allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen > and all the others please!!! > > Best regards > > Rainer Herrmann > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. > Kornfeind > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 > An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela > Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern > Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this > process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate > peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, > where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only > rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new > people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents > worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > >> I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is >> discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. >> History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that >> actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who > commanded the chisel. >> Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. >> There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and >> cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, >> there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, >> we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of > history. >> >> Daniela Ivkovic Showley >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> >> >> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was >> great to get your detailed and supported opinions. >> But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself >> openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your >> views. >> >> If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more >> comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> >> >> >>> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >>> Catch ya later. >>> Karen. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> >>> Jody and Karen, >>> >>> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >>> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >>> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >>> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >>> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >>> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >>> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >>> culture, a history. >>> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >>> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >>> the DS were not essentially a German group. >>> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >>> reality interferes. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Nick >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message