Hello everyone - I wanted to reply to this mostly because I've had a few comments from some that they aren't getting all of their mail that they've seen in the archives. I just went to delete my spam folder and found 10 DVHH mail in there from the past week - this has never happened to me with my gmail acct. - just a heads up to check these spam folders - I think with new security measures being added and stuff this is starting to happen. I don't understand how ANY mail of mine with DVHH in the subject line could end up in there. Also, to Lotte, I get such a kick out of seeing someone else from Haid Lager. I need to have a private talk with you sometime and get your info - you may have been in school with my older sisters. Leni was born in Austria and Theresa in Kupinovo, Yugoslavia - me - USA. Sadly I may have already gone over this with you and just can't recall - my brain is over booked. Eve On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Lotte Devlin <lielo816@aol.com> wrote: > > Karen, > I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: > > "Why is it that all these people who you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany?" > > It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP > camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to > do that. > > Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined > that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came > from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be > absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate > to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from > Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated > into what was to become West Germany. > > You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We > were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we > immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last > barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not > feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there > was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so > that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine > what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never > see their families again. > > Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what > they wanted, because things were really bad. > > Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in > the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical > place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well > served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. > > Lotte > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' < > ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages < > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading > your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who > you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia