Made me smile too, Frank!!! Rita Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: islandkaren<mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 3:46 PM To: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca>; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I laughed here Frank! :):) Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: <ffs1@cogeco.ca> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. > > Frank - Windsor > > On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >> Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, >> Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of >> that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that >> mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! >> >> Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> >> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM >> To: >> donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs >> Citizenship >> >> I'm Hessian >> >> Frank - Windsor >> >> On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Nick... >>> I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of >>> thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. >>> My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were >>> a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area >>> that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there >>> is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often >>> arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had >>> chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the >>> majority in >>> many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but >>> not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally >>> Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben >>> ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were >>> recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we >>> were being liquidated. >>> But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their >>> Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a >>> badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no >>> reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. >>> Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time >>> resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the >>> Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, >>> Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from >>> Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, >>> despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their >>> neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." >>> Thank you for listening to me, >>> RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hi Rita, >>>> >>>> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not >>>> consider >>>> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian >>>> Empire >>>> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, >>>> not >>>> even those travelling to America. >>>> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and >>>> they >>>> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >>>> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen >>>> the >>>> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority >>>> in >>>> many parts of the Empire. >>>> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >>>> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about >>>> the >>>> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Nick Tullius >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >>>> Schiwanowitsch >>>> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hello Nick... >>>> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel >>>> that >>>> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in >>>> mainland >>>> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat >>>> along >>>> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large >>>> swath >>>> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, >>>> there >>>> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >>>> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to >>>> take >>>> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military >>>> service. >>>> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along >>>> the >>>> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that >>>> region, >>>> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, >>>> they >>>> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The >>>> borders >>>> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >>>> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >>>> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic >>>> group >>>> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part >>>> of >>>> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I >>>> know >>>> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >>>> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >>>> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >>>> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. >>>> They >>>> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much >>>> more >>>> "colorful". >>>> RitaColorado and Jabuka >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>>> >>>>> Hello Karen! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>>>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>>>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>>>> >>>>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>>>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>>>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>>>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>>>> >>>>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>>>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>>>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>>>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>>>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>>>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>>>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>>>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>>>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>>>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>>>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >>>> developed over their 250-year history. >>>>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>>>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>>>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>>>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>>>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of >>>>> WWII >>>> there were very few. >>>>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>>>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>>>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >>>> multiethnic entity. >>>>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>>>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>>>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Nick Tullius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>>> message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message