Hello Hans! Of course that is a good synopsis of the umbrella history of migrating tribes across Asia, Europe and the Indian Peninsula. Interesting new "school of thought" in current scholarly circles is that anthropologic evidence is beginning to reveal a new twist on identity of the "Goths"....the most recent migratory tribes who were generally considered to be Germanic. Rather than completely distinct in their identity, it is now believed they may have actually been sub-groups of the Celts. It is my understanding of the history that no one including Attila the Hun was as scary as the Celts!! :):) Also, the Suevi (Suebi/Schwab) actually continued well past central Europe and established two very distinct colonization's just below the Pyrenees in what evolved into the Moor territories, and their descendents are still there. There also was a large population of Jewish Suevi in Spain who were in fact kicked out by Isabella of Spain in the early 1500s and landed in the Banat! There is now lots of evidence that Columbus was actually looking for a new Jewish homeland....not gold for Spain or the Asian continent. He was completely aware the world was round and had maps drawn by his great uncle about 100 years before his journey. There are several "Gothic" churches in the northeast states and Canada built by the Templars years before Columbus arrived. But I digress! Sorry. :):) >From an historical perspective I find it such a tragic paradox that the Germanic Tribes and their mixed kin are generally credited with having possibly the single most civilizing influence of any migrating group to overtake Europe, and yet thanks to one lunatic in the 20th century are also considered to have perpetrated the most horrific recent history event in modern time. Quickly and then I am done....I just want to say how envious I am of you and Nick and lots of other first hand scholarly voices on this List who are bilingual or multilingual. And also how much respect I have for your first hand viewpoints and information. For myself I can't say "thank you" often enough. You have certainly enriched my genealogy journey and also filled-in gaps, broken brick walls, and provided untold amounts of information from which we all have learned. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barb D" <bbd2424@gmail.com> To: "Hans Kopp" <hanskopp.anni@yahoo.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > Nice job! > Barb D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Kopp > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 7:29 AM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > Hi Karen-Lister > > I suppose every one can understand what you are writing in your article > Karen. > > Lets start from the beginning and go back 10,000 years ago because that is > the time northern European history began right after the ice age. > > Every one in the north came from the south, from variety of different > cultures. Therefore our ancestors included a variety of different cultures > reflected in our DNA. > > Fast forward to the Roman Empire. There were two Roman provinces Germania > Inferior (from where the Franken nation originated) and Germania Superior > (from where the Alemannic nation originated) with Trier the center. Both > provinces had several cultures intermixed, such as Germanic, Celtic and > the > Romans with a multitude of cultures themselves. > > When Germania Superior becomes Alemannia (about 200AD) after several > Germanic nations joined from the interior of the Germanic land, one of > them > were the Suebi so called by the Romans. (From Suebi or Schweben as the > Germans called them we get the name Schwaben approx. in the year 1,000 > taking place of Alamania). > > Then came the Huns (about 400AD) and defeated the Germanic Burgundy near > Trier (after their defeat they moved to settle in what is today's Burgundy > and established their kingdom there). > > I reality if we go through our history of recent 2,000 years it becomes > even > more evident as we can see and appreciate. > > Now to the German speaking Donauschwaben. Most of them originate from the > west of the Rheine River parts of the former Franken and Alamania. > > Donauschwaben are considered those 100,000 Germans settlers who settled in > Hungary after the Turkish war during the three Great Schwabian Migrations. > > However, many do include other German settlers during other time periods. > I am not to argue if that is right or wrong to do. > > We can say though we are not a race, whoever it does not mean that we do > not > belong to a German speaking nationality group and were considered by > Germany > when our name was coined, as the Youngest Germanic Folksgroup. > > Gruss > Hans > > On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:32 AM, Daniel HILAIRE > <danielhilaire@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be > german ???? > Daniel, Bordeaux > > >> From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians >> >> To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I >> just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in >> particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they >> thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. >> >> Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a >> Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term >> about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on >> the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who >> did >> not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a >> part >> of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also >> "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the >> geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors >> lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for >> centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became >> "Donauschwaben". >> >> To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy >> that >> one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or >> common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not >> German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who >> may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia >> were >> not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from >> every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of >> course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic >> groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are >> generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages >> in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. >> Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion >> describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who >> spoke High German, > who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! >> and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was >> French.......and on and on. >> >> Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and >> you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you >> were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and >> then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist >> sense, >> but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's >> maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the >> geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did >> they >> all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of >> German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. >> Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on >> specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and >> never >> intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. >> Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most >> certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of >> the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. >> >> I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also >> occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most >> recent >> 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer >> context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even >> farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as >> I >> just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, >> included >> and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the >> reality and history of these families....just read this list. >> >> Karen. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message