I can only speak for some of my relatives who were either in camps or were deported to the mines in Russia, but I never knew any of them to be ashamed. Why would anyone be ashamed for being imprisoned or enslaved innocently? My grandparents died in the forced labour camp Altker/Pasicevo. They were peaceful, god-fearing people who had never harmed anyone. They were too frail to join us on our flight, so they stayed home with their youngest daughter. On November 30, 1944 they were driven out of their home at gunpoint, herded together and forced to spend the night outside in the freezing rain. The next day they had to walk 40 km to the camp. My grandfather, suffering from asthma and a heart condition, collapsed and was thrown on a wagon like a sack; eight days later he was dead. My grandmother died there 2½ years later and my aunt lived to tell their story, but she was not ashamed. One of my aunts died in Gakowa and another in Jarek, but I doubt very much that they were ashamed. There were probably several reasons some of our people didn't want to say they were Schwowe or Donauschwaben. Offhand these come to mind: a) the memories were too painful, b) they did not want to dwell on the past, c) it was too difficult to explain to outsiders, d) they were suffering from the collective guilt syndrome imposed on all people inside and outside of Germany, and d) they were happy to have survived, did not want to dwell on the past and were looking ahead to building a new life. But ashamed? No, never! Rose On 5 May 2014 15:21, Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> wrote: > Bravo Gary! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: > donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gary Banzhaf > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:26 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - > even the word "Nazis" is used !!! > Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is > getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what > we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let > him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of > Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they > intermarried or not. > They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on > foreign soil. > This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second > generation immigrants of North America. > Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no > functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. > Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia > or even Cape town, South Africa etc. > The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and > they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former > associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." > No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I > wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) > for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for > our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never > be forgotten ! > I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! > > Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> > To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> > Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > >I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it > >meant. > > If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eve > > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM > > To: Joseph Psotka > > Cc: dvhh > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by > my > > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know > many > > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > > had > > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > > gesture - > > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > > > Eve > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > > >> > >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > >> family; > >> > >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > >> (my mother and I) > >> > >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we > >> never > >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way > we > >> could. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something > we > >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > >> started with strangers. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Joe > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Diane Halas > >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > >> Cc: dvhh > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She > >> said. > >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > >> who > >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified > >> their > >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > >> and > >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > >> > >> Diane > >> > >> Diane Halas > >> 239-592-9969 > >> > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Amen! Ashamed?? No never! Thanks for the supportRose. Sent from Helga's Ipad > On May 5, 2014, at 9:23 PM, Rose Vetter <rosevetter@gmail.com> wrote: > > I can only speak for some of my relatives who were either in camps or were > deported to the mines in Russia, but I never knew any of them to be > ashamed. Why would anyone be ashamed for being imprisoned or enslaved > innocently? My grandparents died in the forced labour camp > Altker/Pasicevo. They were peaceful, god-fearing people who had never > harmed anyone. They were too frail to join us on our flight, so they > stayed home with their youngest daughter. On November 30, 1944 they were > driven out of their home at gunpoint, herded together and forced to spend > the night outside in the freezing rain. The next day they had to walk 40 > km to the camp. My grandfather, suffering from asthma and a heart > condition, collapsed and was thrown on a wagon like a sack; eight days > later he was dead. My grandmother died there 2½ years later and my aunt > lived to tell their story, but she was not ashamed. One of my aunts died > in Gakowa and another in Jarek, but I doubt very much that they were > ashamed. > > There were probably several reasons some of our people didn't want to say > they were Schwowe or Donauschwaben. Offhand these come to mind: a) the > memories were too painful, b) they did not want to dwell on the past, c) it > was too difficult to explain to outsiders, d) they were suffering from the > collective guilt syndrome imposed on all people inside and outside of > Germany, and d) they were happy to have survived, did not want to dwell on > the past and were looking ahead to building a new life. But ashamed? No, > never! > > Rose > > >> On 5 May 2014 15:21, Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> Bravo Gary! >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: >> donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gary Banzhaf >> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:26 PM >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >> >> >> Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - >> even the word "Nazis" is used !!! >> Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is >> getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what >> we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let >> him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of >> Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they >> intermarried or not. >> They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on >> foreign soil. >> This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second >> generation immigrants of North America. >> Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no >> functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. >> Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia >> or even Cape town, South Africa etc. >> The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and >> they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former >> associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." >> No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I >> wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) >> for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for >> our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never >> be forgotten ! >> I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! >> >> Gary >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> >> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> >> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >> >> >>> I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it >>> meant. >>> If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? >>> >>> Fran Matkovich >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Eve >>> Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM >>> To: Joseph Psotka >>> Cc: dvhh >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >>> >>> I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too >>> complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived >>> notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by >> my >>> parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told >>> them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know >> many >>> of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what >>> had >>> gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my >>> parents about things that were said and they would just make this >>> gesture - >>> like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in >>> particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since >>> he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but >>> mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. >>> >>> Eve >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >>>> family; >>>> >>>> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >>>> (my mother and I) >>>> >>>> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >>>> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >>>> never >>>> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way >> we >>>> could. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something >> we >>>> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >>>> started with strangers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Diane Halas >>>> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >>>> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >>>> Cc: dvhh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She >>>> said. >>>> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >>>> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >>>> who >>>> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >>>> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >>>> their >>>> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >>>> and >>>> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >>>> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >>>> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >>>> >>>> Diane >>>> >>>> Diane Halas >>>> 239-592-9969 >>>> >>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >>> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message