To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish, and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen.

Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be german ???? Daniel, Bordeaux > From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Karen-Lister I suppose every one can understand what you are writing in your article Karen. Lets start from the beginning and go back 10,000 years ago because that is the time northern European history began right after the ice age. Every one in the north came from the south, from variety of different cultures. Therefore our ancestors included a variety of different cultures reflected in our DNA. Fast forward to the Roman Empire. There were two Roman provinces Germania Inferior (from where the Franken nation originated) and Germania Superior (from where the Alemannic nation originated) with Trier the center. Both provinces had several cultures intermixed, such as Germanic, Celtic and the Romans with a multitude of cultures themselves. When Germania Superior becomes Alemannia (about 200AD) after several Germanic nations joined from the interior of the Germanic land, one of them were the Suebi so called by the Romans. (From Suebi or Schweben as the Germans called them we get the name Schwaben approx. in the year 1,000 taking place of Alamania). Then came the Huns (about 400AD) and defeated the Germanic Burgundy near Trier (after their defeat they moved to settle in what is today's Burgundy and established their kingdom there). I reality if we go through our history of recent 2,000 years it becomes even more evident as we can see and appreciate. Now to the German speaking Donauschwaben. Most of them originate from the west  of the Rheine River parts of the former Franken and Alamania.  Donauschwaben are considered those 100,000 Germans settlers who settled in Hungary after the Turkish war during the three Great Schwabian Migrations. However, many do include other German settlers during other time periods.  I am not to argue if that is right or wrong to do. We can say though we are not a race, whoever it does not mean that we do not belong to a German speaking nationality group and were considered by Germany when our name was coined, as the Youngest Germanic Folksgroup.   Gruss Hans On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:32 AM, Daniel HILAIRE <danielhilaire@hotmail.com> wrote: Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be german ???? Daniel, Bordeaux > From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race.  Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia.  As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben".  > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise.  Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube.  Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects.  Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages.  "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! >  and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben.  I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context.  Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories.  Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope.  > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope.  Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are!  They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context.  My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side.  Both are of course relevant.  And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > >  >      > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nice job! Barb D -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 7:29 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians Hi Karen-Lister I suppose every one can understand what you are writing in your article Karen. Lets start from the beginning and go back 10,000 years ago because that is the time northern European history began right after the ice age. Every one in the north came from the south, from variety of different cultures. Therefore our ancestors included a variety of different cultures reflected in our DNA. Fast forward to the Roman Empire. There were two Roman provinces Germania Inferior (from where the Franken nation originated) and Germania Superior (from where the Alemannic nation originated) with Trier the center. Both provinces had several cultures intermixed, such as Germanic, Celtic and the Romans with a multitude of cultures themselves. When Germania Superior becomes Alemannia (about 200AD) after several Germanic nations joined from the interior of the Germanic land, one of them were the Suebi so called by the Romans. (From Suebi or Schweben as the Germans called them we get the name Schwaben approx. in the year 1,000 taking place of Alamania). Then came the Huns (about 400AD) and defeated the Germanic Burgundy near Trier (after their defeat they moved to settle in what is today's Burgundy and established their kingdom there). I reality if we go through our history of recent 2,000 years it becomes even more evident as we can see and appreciate. Now to the German speaking Donauschwaben. Most of them originate from the west of the Rheine River parts of the former Franken and Alamania. Donauschwaben are considered those 100,000 Germans settlers who settled in Hungary after the Turkish war during the three Great Schwabian Migrations. However, many do include other German settlers during other time periods. I am not to argue if that is right or wrong to do. We can say though we are not a race, whoever it does not mean that we do not belong to a German speaking nationality group and were considered by Germany when our name was coined, as the Youngest Germanic Folksgroup. Gruss Hans On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:32 AM, Daniel HILAIRE <danielhilaire@hotmail.com> wrote: Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be german ???? Daniel, Bordeaux > From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I > just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in > particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they > thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a > Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term > about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on > the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did > not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part > of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also > "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the > geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors > lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for > centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became > "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that > one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or > common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not > German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who > may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were > not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from > every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of > course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic > groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are > generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages > in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. > Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion > describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who > spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was > French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and > you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you > were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and > then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, > but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's > maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the > geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they > all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of > German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on > specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never > intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most > certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of > the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also > occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent > 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer > context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even > farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I > just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included > and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the > reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very, very well written Karen!! My DNA and ancestry search supports what you so eloquently state. Thank you. Joe Kurzweil -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 2:10 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

GREAT JOB KAREN! I really enjoyed your description of Donauschwaben's. People have been entwining since the beginning of time, that’s how we all became who we are,so I agree that we should not be to surprised with the results of our DNA. I am looking forward to finding out what mine will come out. Thanks, Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 1:09 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Karen. I think you are right on point and I had also come to this same conclusion. And thank you Daniel Hilaire - Karen did indeed 'save' all of our ancestors who came from the Duchy of Lorraine :-) I will keep this explanation to share with my relatives who are quite confused about "being German, Hungarian, Romanian, etc." I think the main point is, they all shared a common life in the same land and now there is a group who celebrate their heritage as one. John San Francisco, CA On May 2, 2014, at 11:09 PM, islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> wrote: > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My Dupont gggMother from Triebswetter, whose ancestors came from what is today the Belgian province of Luxembourg, will rejoice in heaven, now that she was saved from being German J I participated in this discussion because it was about nationality (today also called ethnicity) versus citizenship. It can be a confusing topic for many readers of this list, because of the many countries that our ancestors lived in, often without moving from their homestead. It can be particularly confusing for those residing in countries where nationality and citizenship mean one and the same thing. I was surprised to see "race" mentioned in a contribution, as I thought that the topic was mercifully buried in the 1940s, and DVHH publishing guidelines seriously discourage or decline to publish material dealing with it. I doubt that many readers of this list are interested in race, even if DNA analysis is involved. With excuses to the regular readers of this list, let me repeat, hopefully for the last time, a few well established facts: 1. It is a well established fact that only a small number came from Swabia, but it is equally well known that German-speakers constituted by far the largest majority of settlers. This fact does in no way diminish the contribution of the settlers speaking other languages. 2. The DS were and are called Swabians (sváb, şvabi, svaba) by their neighbours of other nationalities and over time the name became part of the language(s). The designation "Donauschwaben" came out of academia only around 1922, and was not in general use in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. 3. The village dialects did not just happen, but resulted from a natural mixture of the dialects brought by the settlers from their places of origin. 4. These dialects were German dialects simply because German-speaking settlers and their offspring constituted the majority population in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. The DS used the literary German language as the common language especially for written communication. I can affirm from personal experience that speakers of literary German (Hochdeutsch) could very well understand most Schwowische dialects. 5. The dialects spoken in the Banat villages incorporated a number of loan words from the languages of the surrounding nationalities. And a number of German loan words became part of the languages spoken by the other nationalities. This is normal and happened in all multinational states. 6. There certainly were mixed marriages, but because of different religions and other factors, their number was not large enough to change either the dialect or the validity of the designation as Swabians. I wish that we could respect the decisions made by our ancestors, and by the still-living Danube Swabians all over the world, to be what they were, or what they are. I see no point in invoking either race or DNA to retroactively reassign their nationality. In recent news, the "Swabian migrations" were named as "the most successful settlement action of eighteenth century Europe". Of that all DS descendants can be justifiably proud. Best wishes to all, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: 3-May-14 02:10 To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is only in regard to a statement within your discussion regarding the Templars.    You stated that even before Columbus sailed.to the New World that "Gothic" structures or churches existed in Canada and the US that were built by the Templars.   I am completely unaware of this part of history, and would like to read more about their locations if you would list some reference material. Thank you for indulging my curiosity. Norma Ward Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

Be happy to Norma. I will put some stuff together and sent it off List, if that's okay. ----- Original Message ----- From: hummrhaven@verizon.net To: islandkaren ; DVHH Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians This is only in regard to a statement within your discussion regarding the Templars. You stated that even before Columbus sailed.to the New World that "Gothic" structures or churches existed in Canada and the US that were built by the Templars. I am completely unaware of this part of history, and would like to read more about their locations if you would list some reference material. Thank you for indulging my curiosity. Norma Ward Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net>; Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians Sent: Sat, May 3, 2014 6:09:48 AM To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message