Karen "Black" meant illegally. There was total chaos after the war, and most people got by, by doing things through the black market. Papers were procured illegally, along with the necessities of life. My parents always told me that the only way they could have gone to Germany was through illegal papers that would first get them to France. In the DP camp, there was a whole alternate economy based on cigarettes. Cigarettes were part of the ration that every adult received from the camp administrators (who at various times were Americans or Austrians or Red Cross. They were a cherished commodity, even for those who didn't smoke, because they could trade cigarettes for sugar or lard or flour. Now as a disclaimer, I was only two when we left in 1952, so I'm not speaking from personal recollection, but I spent hours talking with my grandmother, and actually translated a diary she kept during their flight from Weisskirchen in Banat to Linz and Haid, Wowsers, what an eye-opening and humbling experience for me. I so appreciate what my parents did for me and my sisters. My older sister and I immigrated, my two younger sisters were American-born. Funny, when they were little, we spoke English if we didn't want them to understand what we were saying. The bottom line is, I'm pretty sure most folks were too busy trying to survive to worry much about their ancestry. Fortunately, that's a luxury we can afford now and I love tracking things down! Lotte -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: Lotte Devlin <lielo816@aol.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Thanks Lotte for that explanation. I do understand better now. Can you just take a moment and explain to me what you mean by, and then "only black"? I have no idea at all what that reference even begins to mean. This is exactly what I have been trying to get across with Nick and now Jody. I can read all the same stuff they read, and I can look-up just as well as the next person. But I really want to know about the day to day real things that happened and why in order to better understand my own family. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lotte Devlin To: islandkaren@bellsouth.net ; jodymckimpharr@comcast.net ; ntullius@rogers.com ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: "Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany?" It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to do that. Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated into what was to become West Germany. You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never see their families again. Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what they wanted, because things were really bad. Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. Lotte -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' <ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last sentence. I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick with the black and white definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message