I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Rainer, Interesting..... I am 1/2 Siebenburgen also. Where is your family from there? Rita >From Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: mail@rainerherrmann.de > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 17:41:35 +0200 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an > enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing > concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of > the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised > that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. > Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should > have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. > Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: > > When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him > "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a > translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case > Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from > Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even > when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used > instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and > Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. > > I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der > Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. > There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and > officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger > from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". > Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where > they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was > put together. > > We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem > from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a > distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between > the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans > only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And > they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This > is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored > by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did > not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital > for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. > > Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found > out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I > assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were > "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On > their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again > somewhere down the Danube. > > For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My > mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the > Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the > "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress > against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the > doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I > belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all > black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. > > Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the > experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the > idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of > the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most > when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the > concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones > with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the > superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the > word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare > cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the > "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and > excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. > > Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: > Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on > their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents > blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who > determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single > truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and > where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am > allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen > and all the others please!!! > > Best regards > > Rainer Herrmann > > > > > >

Dear Rainer, You and Karen and all the others with widely diverse family histories are all welcome here. That's all I will say for now - typing this on my phone. Best regards, Dan Larson DVHH President Sent from my Droid Maxx -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Herrmann <mail@rainerherrmann.de> To: 'DVHH' <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, 06 May 2014 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I very much appreciate your comments. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Herrmann [mailto:mail@rainerherrmann.de] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 10:42 AM To: 'DVHH' Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message