Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to get your detailed and supported opinions. But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. -----Original Message----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2014 2:35 AM To: "donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Subject: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" > <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:54 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 4-May-14 16:00 > To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for > everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, > Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" > any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change > the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all > this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has > been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common > law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, > and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing > new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they > left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading >your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who >you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no > less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. > You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of > the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as > something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic > entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any > one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. Daniela Ivkovic Showley -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to get your detailed and supported opinions. But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > -----Original Message----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick >