As a second generation citizen of the States, with two Donauschwaben Great Grandparents, I have very little to add to the discussion/debate. However, before I started researching, I was always told that my Great Grandparents were from Austria-Hungary. I was told that, yet my Great Grandmother herself, always said she was Schwaben. It was all very confusing to me until I found DVHH :) Paul St. Michaels, Maryland On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:18 PM, John J. Kornfeind <jmmkorn@cox.net> wrote: > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point > in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area > of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to > result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be > 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle > and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not > trying > to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History > is > > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the > chisel. > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot > > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a > > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great > to > > get > > your detailed and supported opinions. > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > openly and > > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > >> Catch ya later. > >> Karen. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > >> Jody and Karen, > >> > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > >> really > >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > >> that > >> preferably before any further public debate. > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > >> that > >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they > have > >> a > >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the > >> DS > >> were not essentially a German group. > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > reality > >> interferes. > >> > >> Take care, > >> Nick > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello John and all, The introductory paragraph on A Short History of the Donauschwaben http://www.dvhh.org/history/1700s/DS-history~tullius.htm gives us the answer in a nutshell. The term Donauschwaben was used mainly in an academic context and was not in common use by our people. Amongst each other we were Schwowe and we spoke Schwowisch. I might also add that in former Yugoslavia the Serbs often called us by the derogatory name "Buba Švaba", translated from the German cockroach or "Schwabenkäfer" Rose On 5 May 2014 15:28, Paul Kurst <pgkurst@gmail.com> wrote: > As a second generation citizen of the States, with two Donauschwaben Great > Grandparents, I have very little to add to the discussion/debate. However, > before I started researching, I was always told that my Great Grandparents > were from Austria-Hungary. I was told that, yet my Great Grandmother > herself, always said she was Schwaben. It was all very confusing to me > until I found DVHH :) > > Paul > St. Michaels, Maryland > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:18 PM, John J. Kornfeind <jmmkorn@cox.net> wrote: > > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, > but I > > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > > remember > > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive > term > > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the > readings I > > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves > of > > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > > was > > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > > assembly point > > in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the > area > > of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately > to > > result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to > be > > 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to > settle > > and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > > also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not > > trying > > to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > > perspective from here in Arizona. > > > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > > > John J. Kornfeind > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > > > > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History > > is > > > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > > > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the > > chisel. > > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot > > > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > > > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all > have a > > > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great > > to > > > get > > > your detailed and supported opinions. > > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > > openly and > > > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > > >> Catch ya later. > > >> Karen. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > > > >> Jody and Karen, > > >> > > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > > >> really > > >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > > >> that > > >> preferably before any further public debate. > > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > > >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > > >> that > > >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they > > have > > >> a > > >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a > history. > > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that > the > > >> DS > > >> were not essentially a German group. > > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > > reality > > >> interferes. > > >> > > >> Take care, > > >> Nick > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paul, Your post reminds me of my start in questioning my parents about where they came from. Dad would say Kupinovo and I would say oh, okay so mom was born in Obresch, Yugoslavia and you were born in Kupinovo, Yugoslavia (mind you these 2 villages are neighbors). I would no sooner get Yugoslavia out of my mouth and both mom and dad would yell - there was no Yugoslavia then, Austria-Hungary was where he was born. Then I would say - Oh, so mom was born in Obresch, Austria Hungary and again they'd both yell NOOOOOO - now it is Yugoslavia. Wow, talk about confusing, but they were born 10 years apart and alot happened there in those years. Eve On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Paul Kurst <pgkurst@gmail.com> wrote: > As a second generation citizen of the States, with two Donauschwaben Great > Grandparents, I have very little to add to the discussion/debate. However, > before I started researching, I was always told that my Great Grandparents > were from Austria-Hungary. I was told that, yet my Great Grandmother > herself, always said she was Schwaben. It was all very confusing to me > until I found DVHH :) > > Paul > St. Michaels, Maryland > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:18 PM, John J. Kornfeind <jmmkorn@cox.net> wrote: > > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, > but I > > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > > remember > > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive > term > > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the > readings I > > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves > of > > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > > was > > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > > assembly point > > in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the > area > > of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately > to > > result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to > be > > 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to > settle > > and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > > also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not > > trying > > to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > > perspective from here in Arizona. > > > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > > > John J. Kornfeind > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > > > > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History > > is > > > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > > > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the > > chisel. > > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot > > > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > > > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all > have a > > > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great > > to > > > get > > > your detailed and supported opinions. > > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > > openly and > > > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > > >> Catch ya later. > > >> Karen. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > > > >> Jody and Karen, > > >> > > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > > >> really > > >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > > >> that > > >> preferably before any further public debate. > > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > > >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > > >> that > > >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they > > have > > >> a > > >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a > history. > > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that > the > > >> DS > > >> were not essentially a German group. > > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > > reality > > >> interferes. > > >> > > >> Take care, > > >> Nick > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia